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Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

TheSapient said:
Instead of demanding that other people prove your beliefs to be correct, why not do some work yourself? Better yet, why don't you START by gathering information and then develop beliefs that are consistent with the facts?
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1. You can't prove a belief. It's a 'belief' not knowledge. When I 'know' something, it is because I have otherwise absorbed evidence of it. Hence I would never ask anyone to prove my belief. That's silly.

2. I don't have the resources to launch an Atlantis investigation. James Cameron does, and he did, maybe you should check it out?

3. The question I asked the other poster was unanswerable. Because there is no 'minimum standard' for connecting a mythical tale to archaeological evidence. I asked the poster to make one up based on the Troy finding, but only crickets responded.
 
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What's the earliest recorded menorah and what was its context? Why would Jewish scholars BCE interpret an arcane symbol as having relevance?
 
King of the Americas said:
1. You can't prove a belief. It's a 'belief' not knowledge. When I 'know' something, it is because I have otherwise absorbed evidence of it. Hence I would never ask anyone to prove my belief. That's silly.

2. I don't have the resources to launch an Atlantis investigation. James Cameron does, and he did, maybe you should check it out?

3. The question I asked the other poster was unanswerable. Because there is no 'minimum standard' for connecting a mythical tale to archaeological evidence. I asked the poster to make one up based on the Troy finding, but only crickets responded.
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1. You may want to re-read what you said here. You admit you "believe" Atlantis to have been a real place. You say that "Location & Type of Ruins" convince you that there was a real Atlantis off the coast of Spain. You present your goofy menorah idea as evidence for your belief. How does this jive with your new claim that belief makes evidence impossible?

2. You don't need a research vessel to answer the criteria that were presented to you. You just need the internet and some intellectual integrity. I know you have access to the internet.

3. Your question was not unanswerable. You are just asking him to do a ton of work to no purpose. You don't need to watch someone else to show how the location of Troy matched criteria derived from the stories of Troy. Seeing someone do that would not give you the courage to think critically about your claims about Atlantis. How would his work on Troy help you answer this (as an example):

"Regional Constraint → There should be red, white, and black bedrock."

Presumably Plato describes Atlantis as having this sort of bedrock. Does your proposed site have this sort of bedrock? They found Troy roughly where Homer described it being. Do you really need to know more before you can talk about the bedrock of Atlantis?
 
TheSapient said:
1. You may want to re-read what you said here. You admit you "believe" Atlantis to have been a real place. You say that "Location & Type of Ruins" convince you that there was a real Atlantis off the coast of Spain. You present your goofy menorah idea as evidence for your belief. How does this jive with your new claim that belief makes evidence impossible?

2. You don't need a research vessel to answer the criteria that were presented to you. You just need the internet and some intellectual integrity. I know you have access to the internet.

3. Your question was not unanswerable. You are just asking him to do a ton of work to no purpose. You don't need to watch someone else to show how the location of Troy matched criteria derived from the stories of Troy. Seeing someone do that would not give you the courage to think critically about your claims about Atlantis. How would his work on Troy help you answer this (as an example):

"Regional Constraint → There should be red, white, and black bedrock."

Presumably Plato describes Atlantis as having this sort of bedrock. Does your proposed site have this sort of bedrock? They found Troy roughly where Homer described it being. Do you really need to know more before you can talk about the bedrock of Atlantis?
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Damn, caught in my own snare... Good catch. Clearly, I mis-spoke. The evidence presented by Cameron lead me to conclude that the concentric circles, location and dates of the symbols presented "indicate" a connection.

Watch the Cameron film, then let's talk more.

I simply don't have an answer for 'how much' of a connection to symbols, an area, or even a person in required to 'match' a myth to archeological fact...

Again, how do we know what Plato embellished or should the whole description and all of its elements be considered 100% fact?
 
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King of the Americas said:
You too, seem to be stuck in micro mode... Look upon this history not from a single era, but in a macro view of history.

The story of Moses and the Exodus were hundreds upon hundreds of years 'after' the appropriation and de-evolution of the symbol. It is likely those who adopted the symbol little appreciate for what the symbol represented, so to expect them to have the ability to pass anything along is ridiculous.

Can you make connections to the world's most ancient religion, a sunken city, with symbolism connecting the two with corresponding dates?

If so, Yes.
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Oh, I get it.

When you "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious symbol (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that you claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older symbol that you claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, that's "macro view" and somehow interesting.

When I "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious story (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that I claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older story that I claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, and I do it twice over with two different such stories, that's a "micro view" and the hypothesized continuity is "ridiculous."

Hypocritical double standard noted. Correspondingly, my interest in the discussion, summarily dispelled.
 
Myriad said:
Oh, I get it.

When you "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious symbol (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that you claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older symbol that you claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, that's "macro view" and somehow interesting.

When I "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious story (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that I claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older story that I claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, and I do it twice over with two different such stories, that's a "micro view" and the hypothesized continuity is "ridiculous."

Hypocritical double standard noted. Correspondingly, my interest in the discussion, summarily dispelled.
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Dispelled by non-existent hypocrisy... Away with you then. Fare thee well.
 
What IS the 'burden of proof' in regards to Atlantis?

Would one coin do it?

Does it have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, a preponderance of the evidence, and how much evidence, of what kind?

Where does one start, and what elements of Plato's descriptions should be utilized?

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The menorah was once concentric circles upon a post. It has changed. As a symbol this change represents a loss of true meaning and understanding of what its original shape meant.
 
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A menorah kind of looks like a part of the hypothetical map of a hypothetical city, therefore the symbol must be based on a tradition originating from that hypothetical city?
And the fact that it only partly corresponds with the map means that the people who first carved menorahs knew the hypothetical city was destroyed? And never mind the actual Jewish tradition, because maybe they just forgot where they got the 'city broken in half that kind of looks like a candlestick' symbol from and pretended it had always been a candlestick?

Nonsense. Wishful thinking based on superficial similarities.
You either need to show that the menorah symbol once looked like a 19th century map of Atlantis, and was used by someone before the Jews, or find references in Jewish scripture that the symbol referred to something else than the actual lamp in the Temple, or what it symbolized.
And that's just to be able to say there's a link to something else that might be Atlantis, and still far removed from any evidence for the existence of a lost city.

What you claim is like saying that because the breast cancer awareness ribbon kind of looks like the rune Othala, this could mean that the field of oncology is based on ancient Germanic wisdom.
Or that because there's a labyrinth on the floor of Chartres catherdral, the minotaur might have been real.

ETA: There are many symbols with concentric rings or arches, are they all representations of Atlantis? And how would you know? Or if not, what makes the menorah different?
 
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Myriad said:
Oh, I get it.

When you "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious symbol (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that you claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older symbol that you claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, that's "macro view" and somehow interesting.

When I "make a connection" to Atlantis based on a religious story (of the world's most ancient religion) from a few thousand years ago, that I claim based on a casual resemblance is actually a version of a much older story that I claim had a completely different meaning thousands of years earlier relating to Atlantis, and I do it twice over with two different such stories, that's a "micro view" and the hypothesized continuity is "ridiculous."

Hypocritical double standard noted. Correspondingly, my interest in the discussion, summarily dispelled.
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AIUI Hinduism is the world's oldest religion:

Main historical periods

Although the early history of Hinduism is difficult to date with certainty, the following list presents a rough chronology.

Before 2000 BCE: The Indus Valley Civilisation
1500–500 BCE: The Vedic Period
500 BCE–500 CE: The Epic, Puranic and Classical Age
500 CE–1500 CE: Medieval Period
1500–1757 CE: Pre-Modern Period
1757–1947 CE: British Period
1947 CE–the present: Independent India
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Although, who knows for sure?


The history of Judaism spans more than 3,000 years. Judaism has its roots as a structured religion in the Middle East during the Bronze Age.
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The Near East was the first region to enter the Bronze Age, which began with the rise of the Mesopotamian civilisation of Sumer in the mid 4th millennium BC.
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King of the Americas said:
What IS the 'burden of proof' in regards to Atlantis?

Would one coin do it?

Does it have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, a preponderance of the evidence, and how much evidence, of what kind?

Where does one start, and what elements of Plato's descriptions should be utilized?

---

The menorah was once concentric circles upon a post. It has changed. As a symbol this change represents a loss of true meaning and understanding of what its original shape meant.
Click to expand...

It could symbolise the 'three-part cosmos'. It may have deep religious meaning.

However, the mundane reality is that it is possibly just a logo designed to represent the faith, in the same way Christians adopted the crucifix or the Greek Cho. A way of someone saying, 'Kilroy wuz here', if you like.

A while ago there was a plethora of new-age books about the 'meaning of the runes'. Whilst I am sure ancient peoples used the 'FUTHARK' in some old Norse cultures, I was amused by the idea of people sitting in their armchairs claiming that each letter was a spell or a charm for this, that or the other.

My ancestors used a rune symbol to sign legal documents (land deeds) and it was simply the family signature. They were perfectly literate. However, each estate in the area had their own unique mark (ours looks like an 'H' with various hooks on the end strokes). It amuses me to think of the fun occultists would have had with these.

The mediocre reality is, it was just a logo (rather like the modern day brand logos, such as the Nike tick, or the Addidas three stripes) amongst a bunch of wood carving peoples.

Himmler got the swastika symbol from a gravestone in Sweden. Yet people sweat buckets trying to work out 'what does it mean?'

It is what it is.

If I were to tell you someone saw the face of Jesus in a piece of burnt toast, what would you say to me?

Exactly.
 
All Together Now:

"Way down below the ocean where I want to be she may be,
My antediluvian baby, oh yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah,
I want to see you some day".....


A lot has been written about Atlantis.
99.5% of it is crap.
 
King of the Americas said:
What IS the 'burden of proof' in regards to Atlantis?

Would one coin do it?

Does it have to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, a preponderance of the evidence, and how much evidence, of what kind?

Where does one start, and what elements of Plato's descriptions should be utilized?

---

The menorah was once concentric circles upon a post. It has changed. As a symbol this change represents a loss of true meaning and understanding of what its original shape meant.
Click to expand...

You could try finding a submerged lost city with stuff indicating the place was called Atlantis.
 
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