Derived Avogadros Equation for:

[Z]

Holy crap! Are you suggesting that homeopaths don't do a quality check on the occasional vial to make sure the active ingredients are diluted to the proper level? That could be downright dangerous!

~~ Paul

Suggest hell - I'm acusing outright.

 

[Mojo]

Another point (which has been mentioned here in the past): I made the calculations to show that all the Na, Ca, etc. ions from the starting material would be gone from my hypothetical sample by the 12C dilution.
But there could still be some amount of those minerals in the 12c dilution - or the 200C dilution - if there is a constant small amount of contaimination in the solvent itself.

Let's face it, as a contaminant, there could be a little bit of pretty much anything you care to mention! How on Earth can the preparation know what it is supposed to remember?

These homoeopaths are crazy!

 

[Zep]

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Suggest hell - I'm acusing outright.

You must be mistaken. Aren't they using a way-the-hell-past-Avogadro sampling machine to make sure that the potency is exactly 30X or 100C or whatever? The machine looks something like the one at the left of my post.

~~ Paul

 

[Mojo]

I've been looking for a picture of him doing that for ages!

 

[Zep]

You must be mistaken. Aren't they using a way-the-hell-past-Avogadro sampling machine to make sure that the potency is exactly 30X or 100C or whatever? The machine looks something like the one at the left of my post.

~~ Paul

I'd say these poor old Pakistani homeopaths have been thoroughly bamboozled and swindled out of much money by some crafty manufacturer of crap machines, while lead to believe that their "automatic remedy potentiser" actually does what it is supposed to do! Just like the Radionics swindles, and so on. I'm sure we can all find examples of similar technical jokery!

 

[steenkh]

I'd say these poor old Pakistani homeopaths have been thoroughly bamboozled and swindled out of much money by some crafty manufacturer of crap machines, while lead to believe that their "automatic remedy potentiser" actually does what it is supposed to do! Just like the Radionics swindles, and so on. I'm sure we can all find examples of similar technical jokery!

But is it a swindle when the preparations made by this machine work exactly as well as preparations made in the traditional manner?

 

[Rasmus]

But is it a swindle when the preparations made by this machine work exactly as well as preparations made in the traditional manner?

No.

There are rules or instructions on how to prepare a homoopathic medicine solution.

These involve a lot of mixing, pouring things from A to B and some occasionall shaking. I have read elsewhere that an employee in a pharmacy took around two hours to prepare a single bottle and ended up with her arm hurting from all the hard work.

So I think it is reasonable to design, build and sell a machine that takes over some or all of the steps required and sell it as such. (Heck, it doesn't even have to be a machine for homeopathy as such. A machine that can create clean solutions of 10% something in 90% something else seems like a useful thing in some circmstances. You would only need to add very little functionality to derive at a device that can perform all the steps for a homeopathic solution.

Rasmus.

 

[steenkh]

All that is needed to build a homoeopathic remedy manufacturing machine is a device that drains the supplied mother tincture, fills up the bottles with solvent (or lactose pills) and prints out a nice label with specification of the desired name and potetisation level.

Oh, and to ensure that the remedies produced by this machine will work as specified, it should be built to block production of remedies below 10C (or to be safe, 13C)

To ensure that customers feel they have got value for their money, the machine should be equipped with a nice finish, fancy lights and a number of dials and buttons. And of course a thick manual.

 

[Mojo]

All that is needed to build a homoeopathic remedy manufacturing machine is a device that drains the supplied mother tincture, fills up the bottles with solvent (or lactose pills) and prints out a nice label with specification of the desired name and potetisation level.

Oh, and to ensure that the remedies produced by this machine will work as specified, it should be built to block production of remedies below 10C (or to be safe, 13C)

To ensure that customers feel they have got value for their money, the machine should be equipped with a nice finish, fancy lights and a number of dials and buttons. And of course a thick manual.

The machine would also need to succuss the solution after each dilution. Maybe if the manual was leather bound, the machine could tap the bottle on that.

 

[Crispy Duck]

It seems that the number of succussions is important, according to the SkepDic entry on Hahnemann. So, although 2X and 1C dilutions are both 1 part per 100, the 2X dilution gets two succussions while the 1C only gets one. This has a significant effect on the power of the product, apparently. Not sure how the continuous dilution machine handles that.

I was quite staggered to see that they actually make, sell and 'prescribe' 200C remedies. If my maths is correct, this dilution is 1 part in 10^400. The total number of elementary particles in the entire universe is around 10^70, I believe. So, to get a single proton of active ingredient from a 200C dilution, one would have to take a dose the size of 10^330 universes. I don't think I've got a glass big enough.

You can just imagine them sitting around, planning their next product... Homeo 1 says 'these 30C dilutions are selling well and are very effective, shall we make something ten thousand times more powerful? That would be 32C, a nice round number, and we could cure all human disease by tea-time.' Homeo 2 says 'No, that hardly sounds any different from 30C. Let's go for 200C, that sounds cool.' Their trainee, Homeo 3, starts saying '...but that's 1 part in 10 to the power of....' when Homeos 1 and 2 punch him in the face and tell him to get back to his books while they go to the pub.

 

[Mojo]

There are also potencies such as 1M or CM, where the M (I think) stands for a thousand, but I'm not sure exactly how they are prepared. Rolfe?

The alleged flu remedy "Oscillococcinum" is marketed in a 200c potency; all the more amusing as the bacterium it is supposed to contain, Oscillococcus, supposedly from the heart and liver of an unfortunate duck, turns out to be a figment of someone's imagination.

Hmm. I wonder if it's suitable for vegetarians.

 

[Rolfe]

I was quite staggered to see that they actually make, sell and 'prescribe' 200C remedies. If my maths is correct, this dilution is 1 part in 10^400. The total number of elementary particles in the entire universe is around 10^70, I believe. So, to get a single proton of active ingredient from a 200C dilution, one would have to take a dose the size of 10^330 universes. I don't think I've got a glass big enough.

Oh, you want to hear about 1M and 10M potencies. (No, not molar or 10 molar solutions, these are something else.) I can't entirely remember how they're prepared (Geni knows, we had a discussion about it on another thread, in which it became apparent that one homoeo web site actually had it all wrong), but I have it on good authority that the 10M potency is a dilution of 10^20,000. (Darat, can we have html back for the superscripts please?)

Rolfe.

 

[geni]

There are also potencies such as 1M or CM, where the M (I think) stands for a thousand, but I'm not sure exactly how they are prepared.

Continious flow. They take a contianer and poor water into itand let it flow out again untill they have poured enough water through it to get whatever level of potency they wanted. I assume that 3C (assuming 1cm³ of starting material) would = 300cm³ of water put through (since any thing requires insane amounts of water.

The other option is to put a vial of water or pills into a remedy machine (don't ask) type in the code and press the on button. Aparently this produces the correct remedy. The closest I've seen homeopaths trying to explain this one is to start talking about resonence.

 

[Ririon]

[latex]
$\pi 10^{20,000}$
[/latex]

Edit: Wrong button. Sorry. See actual post 3 posts down.

 

[The_Fire]

ririon, how many decimals in the Pi?

 

[Mojo]

Continious flow. They take a contianer and poor water into itand let it flow out again untill they have poured enough water through it to get whatever level of potency they wanted. I assume that 3C (assuming 1cm³ of starting material) would = 300cm³ of water put through (since any thing requires insane amounts of water.

So they don't bother with succussion? What about all the homoeopaths who claim that this is the vital bit which somehow impresses the remedy on the solvent?

The other option is to put a vial of water or pills into a remedy machine (don't ask) type in the code and press the on button. Aparently this produces the correct remedy. The closest I've seen homeopaths trying to explain this one is to start talking about resonence.

I seem to remember a thread about one of those.

ETA: Actually, two threads, here and here.

 

[Ririon]

Oh, you want to hear about 1M and 10M potencies. (No, not molar or 10 molar solutions, these are something else.) I can't entirely remember how they're prepared (Geni knows, we had a discussion about it on another thread, in which it became apparent that one homoeo web site actually had it all wrong), but I have it on good authority that the 10M potency is a dilution of 10^20,000. (Darat, can we have html back for the superscripts please?)

Rolfe.

If you really really want it, this is how you get it: [latex]$\scriptstyle 10^{20,000}$[/latex]

The LaTeX font size is not well matched to the rest of the text here. That's the reason for the scriptstyle command. It looks OK on my system at least. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Mojo]

Can't you still do it like this: 10^20,000?

 

[geni]

So they don't bother with succussion? What about all the homoeopaths who claim that this is the vital bit which somehow impresses the remedy on the solvent?

I assume the contianer is continiously shaken but I don't know much about the details.