NA = 1? I don't follow you.
Derived Avogadros Equation for:
- Thread starter Dr. A Sheikh
- Start date
NA = 1? I don't follow you.
PixyMisa
Persnickety Insect
Not really, no.
Really? That seems to be a new finding for homeopathy.
Interesting.
Yeah, we know. When you say you dilute by a factor of ten, what you mean is you dump some amount of the previous dilution into a vial of solvent which may already be contaminated.
If you were honest and followed the proper procedure when you performed the dilutions, then 12C would be the lowest level where you might reasonably find a single molecule left of the mother tincture. At 13C and higher, you would not expect to find anything at all - at least, you wouldn't if you weren't allowing contaminants into the process.
Rolfe
Adult human female
In fact, 12C is the limit if you start with a mole of solute. I seriously doubt that any mother tincture has a mole of solute in it. Mostly they seem to be talking about small volumes, and not very concentrated solutions. The only one I found any figures for was LSD, where the homoeopath said that 250mg had been used to make the mother tincture.
I keep asking Sheikh what weight of belladonna plant is used to make a mother tincture and he keeps on not answering me. Of course since that is a mixture of many compounds it wouldn't be possible to say how many molecules were in that weight, but it would at least allow some estimates.
I suspect that if we really knew the quantity of solute in the mother tincture we'd find the limit was reached at perhaps as low as 10C. 12C is really the upper limit of possibility, allowing for an awful lot of starting material.
Rolfe.
I keep asking Sheikh what weight of belladonna plant is used to make a mother tincture and he keeps on not answering me. Of course since that is a mixture of many compounds it wouldn't be possible to say how many molecules were in that weight, but it would at least allow some estimates.
I suspect that if we really knew the quantity of solute in the mother tincture we'd find the limit was reached at perhaps as low as 10C. 12C is really the upper limit of possibility, allowing for an awful lot of starting material.
Rolfe.
CurtC
Illuminator
He's saying that since the number "dozen" is equal to 12, then the quantity 12 dozen-1 is dividing 12 by 12, which is one. Same thing for moles.
I agree with him: Avogadro's number is not 6.02x1023/mole, the number is 6.02x1023. Avogadro's number is one mole, which is equal to 6.02x1023, or 602000000000000000000000. No units.
When we use it in an equation, we multiply a quantity by the term 6.02x1023/mole, because that's the same as multiplying it by one, therefore it doesn't change the quantity, only the units.
Ok.
I agree. But you are not just arguing for the existence for the Avogadro number, but for the non-existence of the Avogadro constant, NA.
Can we agree that the mole is defined as the SI base unit for a quantity of substance?
If we agree on that, can we further agree that, as defined by the SI, the definition of a value of a physical quantity is the product of a number and a unit?
If so, then to determine the amount of substance of something (which has units of mole), then NA must necessarily exist, and have the units of mol-1.
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
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Huh? If that were the case, then:CurtC said:
[latex]$6{\rm ~dozen} \cdot \frac{12}{\rm dozen} = 6{\rm ~dozen} \cdot 1 = 6{\rm ~dozen}$[/latex]
But we want the units to cancel, as in:
[latex]$6{\rm ~dozen} \cdot \frac{12}{\rm dozen} = 72$[/latex]
~~ Paul
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
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Ah, but wait. If [latex]${\rm dozen} \equiv 12$[/latex], then:
[latex]$6 {\rm ~dozen} \cdot \frac{12}{\rm dozen} = 72 \cdot 1 = 72$[/latex]
So we can treat dozen as a unit or as a number. The latter works as long as "6 dozen" means "6 times dozen." This is fun.
~~ Paul
[latex]$6 {\rm ~dozen} \cdot \frac{12}{\rm dozen} = 72 \cdot 1 = 72$[/latex]
So we can treat dozen as a unit or as a number. The latter works as long as "6 dozen" means "6 times dozen." This is fun.
~~ Paul
Last edited:
Crispy Duck
Thinker
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Rolfe, somewhere in one of these threads Sheikh mentioned that the MT is prepared by dropping some belladonna in some alcohol and leaving it for a while. It therefore seems likely that he has absolutely no idea what mass of 'belladonna extracts' remain in the alcohol when the plant material itself is removed. How would one begin to determine this? One could weigh the alcohol solution and the plant after the soaking, but this wouldn't tell you an awful lot. One could measure lots of things - density, freezing point, boiling point, colour - would any of this give a starting point for the calculations?
Of course, an honest homeopath could tell you exactly how much belladonna remains in the 30C product, even without knowing the starting concentration
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Rolfe
Adult human female
I don't necessarily believe his accounts of how these things are done, as they seem rather different from what we know from other sources. In particular, the adding of fresh alcohol and water seems doubtful.
However, note that he never describes removing any part of the belladonna plant. Never mind, that's fine. I'll settle for knowing the approximate weight of plant material he started with. Even if we assume that all of that is incorporated in the mother tincture, I think it would still give a sub-12C result for running out of material.
The fact is that you can only get a large number of molecules (or ions) to start with if your remedy is a small molecule or salt. Once you start talking about things with MWs of thousands of daltons, you have proportionately fewer molecules in any likely starting weight of material. So, although you can say, I took 1 mole of sodium sulphate, and when dissolved I had 3 moles of ions in total, you can't really say, I took 1 mole of botulinum toxin, in quite the same way, because you'd be talking about tons of the stuff!
The 12C endpoint is based on a reasonable number of atoms in the starting quantity of mother tincture, as I interpret it. If the substance is such that it will dissociate pretty much to its component atoms (like NaCl), then we end up at about 12C. However, you can't then say, but if I took a substance with a huge molecular weight, and started with the same number of molecules of that as I had of the small MW substance, because in that case (I repeat) you'd be requiring several tons of material. Whether or not the remedy substance is large or small molcules, the chances are that the number of atoms in a practical weight of mother tincture will be relatively constant. If the MW is very large, and the substance does not dissociate, then the Avogadro limit will be reached sooner. However, if you start allowing that it can dissociate down to its component atoms, you merely return to roughly the same place you were with your salt remedy, 12C.
I'm still waiting to see what reactions with the solvent might even be possible for any common remedy, then evidence that these actually happen, then evidence that it's the products of these reactions rather than the mother tincture that is biologically active.
Because if so, why bother with all the diluting and succussing? If homoeopaths can show that they have fortuitously hit upon a way to produce novel therapeutic compounds, and that these have a striking efficacy, then why not just synthesise these compounds. Oh, and test them for safety and so on too....
This is getting really silly, I'm off to do some real work with some real analyses of some real molecules.
Rolfe.
However, note that he never describes removing any part of the belladonna plant. Never mind, that's fine. I'll settle for knowing the approximate weight of plant material he started with. Even if we assume that all of that is incorporated in the mother tincture, I think it would still give a sub-12C result for running out of material.
The fact is that you can only get a large number of molecules (or ions) to start with if your remedy is a small molecule or salt. Once you start talking about things with MWs of thousands of daltons, you have proportionately fewer molecules in any likely starting weight of material. So, although you can say, I took 1 mole of sodium sulphate, and when dissolved I had 3 moles of ions in total, you can't really say, I took 1 mole of botulinum toxin, in quite the same way, because you'd be talking about tons of the stuff!
The 12C endpoint is based on a reasonable number of atoms in the starting quantity of mother tincture, as I interpret it. If the substance is such that it will dissociate pretty much to its component atoms (like NaCl), then we end up at about 12C. However, you can't then say, but if I took a substance with a huge molecular weight, and started with the same number of molecules of that as I had of the small MW substance, because in that case (I repeat) you'd be requiring several tons of material. Whether or not the remedy substance is large or small molcules, the chances are that the number of atoms in a practical weight of mother tincture will be relatively constant. If the MW is very large, and the substance does not dissociate, then the Avogadro limit will be reached sooner. However, if you start allowing that it can dissociate down to its component atoms, you merely return to roughly the same place you were with your salt remedy, 12C.
I'm still waiting to see what reactions with the solvent might even be possible for any common remedy, then evidence that these actually happen, then evidence that it's the products of these reactions rather than the mother tincture that is biologically active.
Because if so, why bother with all the diluting and succussing? If homoeopaths can show that they have fortuitously hit upon a way to produce novel therapeutic compounds, and that these have a striking efficacy, then why not just synthesise these compounds. Oh, and test them for safety and so on too....
This is getting really silly, I'm off to do some real work with some real analyses of some real molecules.
Rolfe.
I missed this whole thread until now. Darn.
I decided to make a real life example for a remedy. I used the USDA nutrient database values for broccoli as my sample of a remedy. Broccoli has about 10% dry matter. For an approximate estimate of an extract I figured there would be half that weight in the final volume because of the solvent.
So then I plugged in various values for the minerals etc. in the nutrient list.
I figured the weight and the number of atoms-molecules-ions of various compounds per ml. Needless to say, they were all goine by 12C.
Selenium was gone by 7C. Calcium, potassium and sodium were gone by 10C.
What else... I figured the amount of sucrose: gone by 9C. Glucose and fructose gone by 10C.
By 12C, the whole weight of the starting extract was reduced to 5.0 x 10-26 grams per ml. Since this is less than the weight of a H atom, it means that the probability is that not even one atom from the starting extract remains.
Broccoli has a compound sulforaphane which may have beneficial medicinal properties. It breaks down and/or combines into new compounds in a lovely complex array that might be just the kind of thing Dr. A Sheikh envisions. I imagined plugging those values into Excel but I haven't done it yet. It would work just the same as the easier examples.
Okay, instead of taking the small amount of sucrose in my hypothetical broccoli extract, let's take a whole gram of sucrose as our starting material. (Ignore the fact that sucrose isn't a remedy - this is just for the numbers.)
By 11C the probability is that no molcule remains.
But sucrose can be combined with a molecule of water (solvent!) to produce a molecule of glucose and a molcule of fructose. Let's take all the sucrose remaiing at the 8C dilution and break it down into glucose and fructose. (Note: this would not really happen. This is for numbers only.) The fructose and glucose are still diluted out by 11C. But wait, sucrose is actually composed of 12 atoms of C, 22 atoms of H and 11 atoms of O. What if at the 8C dilution it completely and magically decomposed into all those atoms?
They would all be diluted out by 12C.
I could post the math, or maybe I could think of more examples if I thought it would do any good.
------------
There is one homeopathic remedy that might be a catalyst for alcohol breakdown. I posted about this here once before. I think it was potassium dichromate. I don't remember the details but it is used in breathylizer tests. My memory is that it works at an acid pH though. And there would still be the problem that the catalyst would be diluted out before 12C and the transformed ethanol (if any) would be diluted out.
An American com[pany, Hahnemann Labs (?) said they only use water for the early dilutions when preparing this remedy - to avoid any reaction.
I decided to make a real life example for a remedy. I used the USDA nutrient database values for broccoli as my sample of a remedy. Broccoli has about 10% dry matter. For an approximate estimate of an extract I figured there would be half that weight in the final volume because of the solvent.
So then I plugged in various values for the minerals etc. in the nutrient list.
I figured the weight and the number of atoms-molecules-ions of various compounds per ml. Needless to say, they were all goine by 12C.
Selenium was gone by 7C. Calcium, potassium and sodium were gone by 10C.
What else... I figured the amount of sucrose: gone by 9C. Glucose and fructose gone by 10C.
By 12C, the whole weight of the starting extract was reduced to 5.0 x 10-26 grams per ml. Since this is less than the weight of a H atom, it means that the probability is that not even one atom from the starting extract remains.
Broccoli has a compound sulforaphane which may have beneficial medicinal properties. It breaks down and/or combines into new compounds in a lovely complex array that might be just the kind of thing Dr. A Sheikh envisions. I imagined plugging those values into Excel but I haven't done it yet. It would work just the same as the easier examples.
Okay, instead of taking the small amount of sucrose in my hypothetical broccoli extract, let's take a whole gram of sucrose as our starting material. (Ignore the fact that sucrose isn't a remedy - this is just for the numbers.)
By 11C the probability is that no molcule remains.
But sucrose can be combined with a molecule of water (solvent!) to produce a molecule of glucose and a molcule of fructose. Let's take all the sucrose remaiing at the 8C dilution and break it down into glucose and fructose. (Note: this would not really happen. This is for numbers only.) The fructose and glucose are still diluted out by 11C. But wait, sucrose is actually composed of 12 atoms of C, 22 atoms of H and 11 atoms of O. What if at the 8C dilution it completely and magically decomposed into all those atoms?
They would all be diluted out by 12C.
I could post the math, or maybe I could think of more examples if I thought it would do any good.
------------
There is one homeopathic remedy that might be a catalyst for alcohol breakdown. I posted about this here once before. I think it was potassium dichromate. I don't remember the details but it is used in breathylizer tests. My memory is that it works at an acid pH though. And there would still be the problem that the catalyst would be diluted out before 12C and the transformed ethanol (if any) would be diluted out.
An American com[pany, Hahnemann Labs (?) said they only use water for the early dilutions when preparing this remedy - to avoid any reaction.
Do not forget that he and Dr. MAS are using this fantastic automatic potentising machine, and it can appararently move straight from MT to 30C. So perhaps they are really adding fresh alcohol or water to the dilution all the time!
Dr. MAS has not revealed exactly how, but he has hinted that his "proof" of MT molecules present at high dilutions is connected to the use of this machine. We suspect that the machine is not sufficiently rinsed between potentisations that traces of MT will always contaminate each potentisation.
I wonder how common such machines are.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Exactly! Just the calulation I was anticipating when I asked Sheikh to tell us what weight of belladonna he was planning on starting with.
Great minds think alike.
Hey, if this only works with the fantastic MAS potentising machine, then how come all those other homoeopaths (starting with the Great H himself) all say it works for them?
Rolfe.
Dr. A Sheikh
Muse
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The molecules of plumb met were traced in 200 potency due to this method.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
What method? Do you mean not cleaning your equipment properly?
Z
Variable Constant
I get the sneaking suspicion that these machines don't dilute very much at all - that the exchange of solvent happens at the top of the containers, while solutes settle into the bottom. Like 'rinsing' the upper layers of the solution.
In other words - a fraud even among homeopaths.
In other words - a fraud even among homeopaths.
Nucular
Illuminator
Sounds like a silly method, if so.
By what method were the molecules traced? In what sort of quantity were they present? Was the research published?
Another point (which has been mentioned here in the past): I made the calculations to show that all the Na, Ca, etc. ions from the starting material would be gone from my hypothetical sample by the 12C dilution.
But there could still be some amount of those minerals in the 12c dilution - or the 200C dilution - if there is a constant small amount of contaimination in the solvent itself.
But there could still be some amount of those minerals in the 12c dilution - or the 200C dilution - if there is a constant small amount of contaimination in the solvent itself.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Yes, that's why we refer to homoeopaths being able to distinguish the potentised remedy from the stock solvent. No solvent will ever be entirely pure, so like must be compared with like.
Rolfe.
Rolfe.
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
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Holy crap! Are you suggesting that homeopaths don't do a quality check on the occasional vial to make sure the active ingredients are diluted to the proper level? That could be downright dangerous!Zaay said:
~~ Paul