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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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Please explain your explanation for "slow" guys like me!

humber said:
No, just seeing if you can work it out. To see how how you react to direct evidence and being given a description of what the cart really does.

The Carteers will top the denier's list, with a recorded history to back it up.
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When you have a theory of operation that is different from the status quo, please do inform us as I will be the first one to admit that I don't have a clue what you are talking about! I will freely admit that your incomprehensible gibberish is going right over my head. So for the uninformed and daft guys like me, you'll need to spell it out clearly and not in code.

I"m still under the impression that "you got nothing" but please produce an explanation that is so blindingly clear I'll have to apologize for doubting you!

WindGrins
 
drewid said:
I see four seconds of badly time stretched video, I have no idea what that is supposed to prove.
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When I first watched it, for some reason I thought the propless cart was moving up the belt. Since the video doesn't show the cart being released, I thought it had been pushed up the belt and picked up before it started to move with the belt. However, when I watched again, I saw that it was just another video of a propless cart moving with the belt, but slower than the belt. Humber seems to think there is some significance to the fact that this happens. Those of us with a "naive understanding of relative motion" don't get it. I guess you need to have no understanding of relative motion whatsoever to understand what humber thinks he's proving.
 
I'm pretty sure that humber was just trying to show how he "calculated" the force acting to accelerate the cart in that movie. Which was a movie spork originally made showing the propless cart going down the treadmill.

Of course the force he "calculated" is essentially the same as the rolling resistance mender had measured a long time ago, so I'm not privy to what point he thinks he is making.
 
drewid said:
I see four seconds of badly time stretched video, I have no idea what that is supposed to prove.

ETA: It may even be running backwards but the audio is so chopped it difficult to tell without really looking at it properly.
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So you're saying the video has been manipulated? I can see how humber would go to the trouble to manipulate a video, and still end up with something that doesn't support his claims.
 
Llyricist said:
I'm pretty sure that humber was just trying to show how he "calculated" the force acting to accelerate the cart in that movie. Which was a movie spork originally made showing the propless cart going down the treadmill.

Of course the force he "calculated" is essentially the same as the rolling resistance mender had measured a long time ago, so I'm not privy to what point he thinks he is making.
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As near as I can figure it, because the force accelerating the cart is very small (a real shocker for a very light cart with wheels, I know), he thinks he can conjure it up from nothing to make a propless cart move against the belt. He'll have that working any day (or maybe it's any decade) now.
 
CORed said:
As near as I can figure it, because the force accelerating the cart is very small (a real shocker for a very light cart with wheels, I know), he thinks he can conjure it up from nothing to make a propless cart move against the belt. He'll have that working any day (or maybe it's any decade) now.
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Yeah, I agree that is what he has been not so subtly hinting at. Which only makes it clearer that he hasn't a clue.

Hint for humber, the only way for the cart move against the force of the belt pushing it down the treadmill frame is to leverage the belt's motion against something else that is moving at a different velocity than the belt. (and that statement is frame invariant ;) )
 
Llyricist said:
Yeah, I agree that is what he has been not so subtly hinting at. Which only makes it clearer that he hasn't a clue.

Hint for humber, the only way for the cart move against the force of the belt pushing it down the treadmill frame is to leverage the belt's motion against something else that is moving at a different velocity than the belt. (and that statement is frame invariant ;) )
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Either that or have an energy source on the cart driving the wheels (like a battery and electric motor). I think even humber recognizes that that would be cheating, though.
 
Hey yaw'l, prepare your self for the rubber band man!

CORed said:
Either that or have an energy source on the cart driving the wheels (like a battery and electric motor). I think even humber recognizes that that would be cheating, though.
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My guess is that he'll use a rubber band wind up like those little toy planes. Hold the cart on the belt, wind the band, release, away it goes up TM. Ensure you can't see the rubber band by covering it up and Voila'- a cart that goes up TM.

Never mind the little stipulation about no stored energy!

Humber, Just remember, for it to be creditable and not a fraud, someone else who is independent has to be able to duplicate your results! So, if you want anyone to believe you, you will have to show us how to build one of your great up TM carts!

ETA: To the Gang. Don't be silly, I don't think we'll ever see a cart of Humber's ever go up TM because it would actually have to be built even if it had a 'motor'. Humber does not have a long track record of delivering against promises! So don't think I actually believe this will occur!

windGrins
 
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Here's the original video from which humber took those few seconds:



In the first part of the video, you can see the cart with prop moving in the opposite direction to the treadmill belt. Then you see (in the part humber slowed down for us) the cart without a prop moving in the same direction as the treadmill belt.

Apply the correct velocity transforms and it's clear that all this shows is that the cart with the turning prop can accelerate from wind speed to above wind speed, but without the prop it cannot: when it is placed on the belt it is at wind speed, and the fact that it starts moving in the direction of the belt means that it is losing speed with respect to the wind.
 
Michael C said:
Here's the original video from which humber took those few seconds:



In the first part of the video, you can see the cart with prop moving in the opposite direction to the treadmill belt. Then you see (in the part humber slowed down for us) the cart without a prop moving in the same direction as the treadmill belt.

Apply the correct velocity transforms and it's clear that all this shows is that the cart with the turning prop can accelerate from wind speed to above wind speed, but without the prop it cannot: when it is placed on the belt it is at wind speed, and the fact that it starts moving in the direction of the belt means that it is losing speed with respect to the wind.
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Okay, so he just took a small piece out of one of spork's videos and slowed it down. I should have realized that actually making a video of his own was way beyond his ability.
 
windgrins said:
My guess is that he'll use a rubber band wind up like those little toy planes. Hold the cart on the belt, wind the band, release, away it goes up TM. Ensure you can't see the rubber band by covering it up and Voila'- a cart that goes up TM.

Never mind the little stipulation about no stored energy!

Humber, Just remember, for it to be creditable and not a fraud, someone else who is independent has to be able to duplicate your results! So, if you want anyone to believe you, you will have to show us how to build one of your great up TM carts!

ETA: To the Gang. Don't be silly, I don't think we'll ever see a cart of Humber's ever go up TM because it would actually have to be built even if it had a 'motor'. Humber does not have a long track record of delivering against promises! So don't think I actually believe this will occur!

windGrins
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It was spork and JB's disclosure of the specifications of the small cart and the replication of their results by others that made it clear early on that they were not scammers.

Humber's secret cart that he won't show anybody (yeah, right) is exactly how not to establish credibility. Of course he's never going to show the propless cart that can move against the treadmill belt, nor disclose how it's made, because it doesn't exist. If he shows a video of a cart moving against the belt, and doesn't disclose how he did it, or nobody else can replicate it, he will still have nothing
 
CORed said:
Okay, so he just took a small piece out of one of spork's videos and slowed it down. I should have realized that actually making a video of his own was way beyond his ability.
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Michael C: thanks for posting- a video from way back; I remember it.

It just goes to show what I have long suspected- Humber can't tell the difference between forwards and backwards!
 
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Unenviable position.

CORed said:
No, it's just that we "carteers" have a "naive understanding" of forwards and backwards. :D
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Actually, I find myself in the unenviable situation of defending Humber. In spite of this, in the name of fairness, I will: I believe he always said this particular video was with the cart moving back.

Exactly what his point was, is nothing I was ever able to figure out but I believe he was trying to compute the power to accelerate the cart at this speed from the video.

It's not clear that he is taking into account the angular momentum of the drive train with the prop removed so if this is the case, its not clear what he is measuring but that's not terribly surprising. Where he intends to take this is shrouded in mystery that only he "understands" but this is also par for the course.

WindGrins
 
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windgrins said:
Exactly what his point was, is nothing I was ever able to figure out but I believe he was trying to compute the power to accelerate the cart at this speed from the video.
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He seemed to be fixated on the fact that the cart moved back slowly after being released. As if he felt that a cart released at wind speed on a road would decelerate more quickly. But since he has never used clear declarative statements to explain what he sees in videos like this, we are having to bend over backward to give him more credit than he may deserve.

Then, once we do our best to decipher his gibberish and point out why that would be precisely wrong, and detail the many reasons why the cart would not come to a complete stop once released on a road at wind speed, he will return to say we got it all wrong and mock us for our poor understanding of the humbervere as expressed in humberese.

It's not clear that he is taking into account the angular momentum of the drive train with the prop removed so if this is the case, its not clear what he is measuring but that's not terribly surprising. Where he intends to take this is shrouded in mystery that only he "understands" but this is also par for the course.

WindGrins
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No, it is never clear what he is doing or saying because the moment it becomes clear it is clearly wrong. Vague is not yet wrong because it is not yet understood. Every clear statement he has made as to why the cart doesn't work or why the TM is not an adequate test bed has been shown wrong.

And then he has declared victory.
 
Dr. Keith said:
He seemed to be fixated on the fact that the cart moved back slowly after being released. As if he felt that a cart released at wind speed on a road would decelerate more quickly. But since he has never used clear declarative statements to explain what he sees in videos like this, we are having to bend over backward to give him more credit than he may deserve.

Then, once we do our best to decipher his gibberish and point out why that would be precisely wrong, and detail the many reasons why the cart would not come to a complete stop once released on a road at wind speed,
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Just a nitpick here, but I doubt that the small cart would come to a complete stop in a 10 MPH wind.
 
Llyricist said:
Just a nitpick here, but I doubt that the small cart would come to a complete stop in a 10 MPH wind.
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Without the prop for drag, it just might stop but you are probably correct. I mentioned back in post #10312 that it would definitely blow along in a "gale".

WindGrins
 
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