Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[CORed]

You are exactly right in your assessment. It's impossible for him to learn about actual frames of reference because he believes he knows all there is to know already.

Textbooks DO say that a balloon with drift at the same speed as the wind because textbooks describe the equivalence of frames of reference ad nauseum and a balloon drifting the same speed as the wind is thus exactly the same as a balloon sitting still in the room.

If your understanding of frames is screwed (as Humber's is) you are simply screwed in entirety regarding this brainteaser.

JB

If your understanding of frames is screwed, you're pretty well screwed for understanding any kind of physics problem, as humber has repeatedly demonstrated.

 

[ynot]

Yo mender. I know I had a link to John's "Retard Tennis" somewhere, but couldn't find it. Thanks for posting it. You might remember when spork also did so on that thread I started here on the Ivanpah runs, and said it was a must read. He's reposted it at TR several times.

Of course that was long before the Chief realized that TR's Sarah Bellum-the liberated rock chick-was in fact John Freestone from here, and later at RDF. Now, do you remember why he changed his name before he came back at TR?
@ynot: I think the above is part of the story you missed. It went down at RDF. By a strange coincidence, John also found sporkCo's manner quite insulting, and as a result dropped out after about a month there. He later changed his name to Sarah at TR, just to avoid having it all start again there. It was quite funny to watch spork praise Sarah, while reviling John after I posted a link at TR to a blog he wrote about the thread.

The important thing to remember is that spork never starts the insulting. I'm sure he'll be posting a link to where both you and Humber attacked him first in this forum any day now.

Thanks for that interesting info. I haven’t taken part in many other forums but have followed them to some degree and have observed that many people on many forums have found Spork & Co’s manner insulting. Not surprising given it’s their preferred modus operandi. On one forum Spork’s avatar read “Fear The Spork”. How childishly aggressive is that for a man of “science”?

Spork won’t be posting any links he will merely continue with his “proven” method of insults and unfounded accusations.

 

[CORed]

.....
It would be hard to find a more intellectually immature and literal interpretation, than has been taken in support of WS balloons.
...

Oh see, that's our mistake: Interpreting the textbooks literally, because only an ignorant wiseguy man like humber can know what they really mean.

 

[jduffy77]

Quite frankly, I don't understand the argument.

For me, the only mysteries are:
1. How much faster than wind speed can it go?

The ratified world record they set was 2.8x WS. I believe they have had it up to around 3.5x WS.

2. What practical purpose will be served?

If you mean practical application; none.

 

[jduffy77]

On the contrary. It has been known for several hundred years. Carteers do need to move into this Century, or at least the end of the 19th. For instance, D'Alembert's paradox...

"In fluid dynamics, D'Alembert's paradox is a contradiction reached in 1752 by French mathematician Jean le Rond d'Alembert.[1] D'Alembert proved that — for incompressible and inviscid potential flow — the drag force is zero on a body moving with constant velocity relative to the fluid.[2] Zero drag is in direct contradiction to the observation of substantial drag on bodies moving relative to fluids, such as air and water; especially at high velocities corresponding with high Reynolds numbers."

...has been solved. Yes, you are going to tell me that "it's about things moving relative to a fluid !!" and not the Fairytale land of windspeed.

1) His conclusion would show that the wind cannot drive a balloon.

2) That obviously contradiction, led to further theoretical and practical work, that showed where the problem lay.

3) The result of all the work, is the discovery of things that mean balloons will not get to WS.

Since that time, there has been no to need to express that they may or may not.

For the 3000th or so time Humber posts something which refutes his own position.

 

[CORed]

For the 3000th or so time Humber posts something which refutes his own position.

He's good at that.

 

[jduffy77]

No, Tempo, It is not that easy. Ask uncool, or read all about it over at TR.
He spent a lot of time and effort on that, but I think he may have realised he made some mistakes. Not heard from him for a while. In the process, Yevgheni and I proved, using math, that the cart can't work.

Actually, Humber does not understand math, but the math Yev posted actually proved the cart does work. Because Yev does not like his own conclusion he introduces his version of a cosmological constant to change his result.

BTW, Humber, do you have Yev on board your slower than WS balloon crusade?

 

[Skwinty]

The ratified world record they set was 2.8x WS. I believe they have had it up to around 3.5x WS.

Is that enough to dispel the naysayers?

I mean, the question of the ribbons accuracy should be stated without doubt.

 

[jduffy77]

Is that enough to dispel the naysayers?

I mean, the question of the ribbons accuracy should be stated without doubt.

Yes it has been enough. Obviously, there are always kooks, two of which are still active in this thread. The analogy to folks like the moon landing deniers, the Elvis lives crowd, etc., have been use many times in the thread because they are so apt. As I said there will always be crazies.

 

[spork]

On one forum Spork’s avatar read “Fear The Spork”. How childishly aggressive is that for a man of “science”?

My on-line name has simply been "spork" for years. Someone sent me that avatar a long time ago, and I thought it was slightly clever. If you type "fear the spork" into google I think you'll find it gets LOTS of hits. I didn't invent it. I'm sorry if it scares you.

Spork won’t be posting any links he will merely continue with his “proven” method of insults and unfounded accusations.

Just be patient. Perhaps someone will come along that isn't familiar with your history of science through intentional deception (and whining). Then they may ask for those links.

 

[humber]

I don't think you read the first reference: No mention of rising there, only "constant height".

One has to admire your liberal attitude to what may be regarded as a reference text, but is it this contradiciry statement?

There is no way of controlling the horizontal movement of a helium balloon at a constant height: it moves at the speed of the wind in the direction of the wind. This is what makes ballooning so fascinating: there is no wind blowing on you and no wind noise

That is about ballooning, and that is quite a different matter, because basket is not the surface of the balloon, and do you have a reference that says what the limits of perception are for human sensing of wind?
A hobbyist, repeating the same old line. No you need to support it with something more substantial. Mathematics for instance.


.

 

[humber]

My on-line name has simply been "spork" for years. Someone sent me that avatar a long time ago, and I thought it was slightly clever.

That is still false advertising.

If you type "fear the spork" into google I think you'll find it gets LOTS of hits. I didn't invent it. I'm sorry if it scares you.

If you type "Ruina" you can find all your claims and analogies for the cart, as well as those for bike steering.

 

[humber]

Oh see, that's our mistake: Interpreting the textbooks literally, because only an ignorant wiseguy man like humber can know what they really mean.

It is very much that, and Spork is not the first to use frames of reference as means of conviction.
Common amongst the levitation/anti-gravity mob.

 

[humber]

Yes it has been enough. Obviously, there are always kooks, two of which are still active in this thread. The analogy to folks like the moon landing deniers, the Elvis lives crowd, etc., have been use many times in the thread because they are so apt. As I said there will always be crazies.

Jones Town, Heaven's Gate, Railians, Scientology.
What do they have in common?

 

[jduffy77]

Jones Town, Heaven's Gate, Railians, Scientology.
What do they have in common?

They all remind me of you Humber. You are the poster boy for a cult with two members. The word "cult" describes a fringe group, out of the main stream. I have asked you before to think about that for a moment. I know that you think you are a lone voice of reason in a world gone mad regarding your views of the cart but I sure hope you realize you are a member of a minority in the order of thousandths of 1% of the population. If you do not then you are simply delusional.

 

[humber]

Actually, Humber does not understand math, but the math Yev posted actually proved the cart does work. Because Yev does not like his own conclusion he introduces his version of a cosmological constant to change his result.

BTW, Humber, do you have Yev on board your slower than WS balloon crusade?

The math is sound. A few lines of absurd arithmetic is all that has ever been offered to you by TAD.
Of course, Yevgheni does not think that balloons travel at WS and neither does Harold. The question is interesting. It is abundantly clear that I can call on science and math to support my claim. I can go as deep into that as need be.

But, you ask about what Yevgheni thinks. That is curious, considering your opinion of his skills, but would take his denial as support against me. A motive is hanging out.

 

[Dr. Keith]

It is abundantly clear that I can call on science and math to support my claim.

Can we expect this soon?

Before or after the unveiling of the aforementioned cart of yours?

Just trying to plan my popcorn purchasing . . .

 

[humber]

They all remind me of you Humber.

All led by a lone, iconoclastic guru.

sure hope you realize you are a member of a minority in the order of thousandths of 1% of the population. If you do not then you are simply delusional.

Of the thousands who saw Daedalus' "perpetual wheel" only one correctly reasoned how it worked. And your reasoning is what put Galileo under threat of execution.

 

[humber]

Can we expect this soon?

Before or after the unveiling of the aforementioned cart of yours?

Just trying to plan my popcorn purchasing . . .

Hats and humble pie may be more appropriate.

 

[EHocking]

...Since that time, more work has been done, and there are many more accurate means of analysis and physical explanations that say the balloon will not reach WS. Living in the past is more comfortable than the cutting edge.

...There is no way of controlling the horizontal movement of a helium balloon at a constant height:it moves at the speed of the wind in the direction of the wind. This is what makes ballooning so fascinating: there is no wind blowing on you and no wind noise