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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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Humber,

I have a couple of questions for you regarding balloons in the wind:

Let's say a hot air balloon has been in a steady state wind for, say, 30 minutes.

How close is it to wind speed? Within a .001 of a mph?
Do different hot air balloons have different speeds because they have different sizes?

Just interested since I've never heard of this concept before outside of this forum!

Thanks,
 
No. That is the deception. One is divorced from the other.
And BTW, balloons do not behave like that, not do they travel at WS.

You won't accept even basic aerodynamics, but Newton says they won't.
For each force there is an equal and opposite force. If not, the world would be chaotic, and you wouldn't be here.

The little tacking cart will, like a sailing boat on a broad reach, beat the wind.

Therefore the little carty thing it's in will beat the wind. QED. It really is that simple.

How you fail to understand this is beyond me. I showed it to a 12 year old (a bright one, mind you) and she got it in seconds.
 
Humber,

Actually, I have a text called "The symmetry of sailing" by Ross Garrett that does refer to DDWFTTW sailing and does a pretty good job of discussing it. At the time it was written, I don't believe any boats had achieved this.
I have seen that book, and many, including me, see it as being a bit mystical.
Even still, the author does not refer to tacking props, and the boat that was built did not work.

There has been a lot of discussion about math to explain this and the primary objection seems to be a violation of conservation of energy which no one that built the cart claims. All the energy comes from the differential of the air over ground. The real "math" issue boiled down is:
There are countless over-unity cranks who claim the same. Violation of established laws, and claims of PM are unacceptable, so deny that you do.

When the cart is at 0 relative WS, is the propeller producing more thrust than the resistance of the wheels and frictional losses?
If so, the cart will accelerate past 0 WS (relative to the cart not the prop blades). So the only relevant math is: When the cart is at WS (0 relative wind), is the props thrust > or < the wheel/drivetrain resistance + frictional losses. (The cart is at 0 WS in this condition so there are no aero losses to add.) Everything else is an aside and irrelevant.
That is over-simplified and naive arithmetic, Windgrins. If physics were like that, we could all be Professors.
There is quite a lot wrong with that analysis, but where does the power come from? The entire point is that there is no power at WS. In fact, the Carteers agree, when they say balloons can travel to WS, but no further. Lower the drag, and it will go past WS?

The point about I Ratant's friend is that it is easy to confuse the idea of the props relative WS with the carts. The idea is that the prop (with a source of torque) will produce thrust at 0 WS. (otherwise a Cessna couldn't start taxiing).
A Cessna has that source of power. The engine.

This "static thrust" is exactly what BB is using when it obtains WS to accelerate.
Two falsehoods. Static thrust does no work on the prop. Check it out.
Any useful text will tell you that. The definition is a bit vague, because a pure thrust generator is not feasible, so there are work components but they are losses. If the thrust were static, the cart could not accelerate.

Again it is worth noting that there are no regimes from the props point of view once it leaves its initial "stalled condition" on start up. It produces more and more thrust until finally at well above wind speed, the carts aerodynamic and rolling drag equal the props thrust. From there it will no longer accelerate at that WS. (steady state well above WS)
Do you know how much power that prop produces at 15rpm? 3W.
That can be calculated from the "First spin up" video. There is another higher speed "Momentum Test", but I have not yet looked at that.
One can always generate more force. A garden hose can be used to increase the force or speed of the water, by adjustment of the nozzle, but the power remains the same as the input,( it will generally fall, but in simple principle it will not change)

Again, let's see that cool cart of yours on video working as described.
The trial data comes first. I know TAD's tricks, and they will excuse the TM in some way, and still insist that the trial is valid. Both barrels at once, that is why.
 
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Oh, it took years of training to make similar carts. A box of props from a flea market ( about $5), 6 wooden wheels/pulleys ( total $4). The most expensive item was the thread. Three types ( total $6).
Oh, the mental strain of figuring out how to connect one to the other.
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With my toy airplanes, I've have entertaining successes, and miserable failures.
I've got trophies for the successes, but no tears over the miserable failures.
I had an F9F-8 sloper I had high hopes for, but it never managed to get much above eye level in the strongest winds, and needed lots of fixing. The similar A-7 is a delight to fly, as is the F9F-5.
The Cougar is land-fill now.
BFD. :)
At one of the Antelope Valley Tailwinds Club's contests at the field at F-8 and Challenger Way (shameless plug)... Climb, glide, spot landing.
I had the lowest altitude achieved, shortest glide, but nailed the spot.
By groundlooping. :)
The other guys landed normally and hoped the planes would stop near the spot. The nearest ended about 100 feet away.
(I was the editor for the club paper at the time, so I chose the photograph.
Got a ration of **** for the halo, I did. :) )
 

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The one on the left is a clumsy scrap heap, the other isn't.
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I wouldn't say that.
Looks finely made of quality materials.
I do question the lack of a real roll-cage, considering the speeds achieved.
My brother rolled his sprint car a few times at lower speeds, and was hurting for weeks despite the full body harness, arm restraints and roll cage.
One of these full-sized carts trips sideways at speed.. Oi!
 
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The prop turning in the normal direction, is a sail. Drag, not thrust. When being pushed from behind, the forward speed lessens the drag/sail effect as it increases in rpm as the cart approaches wind speed.
Achieving windspeed, the prop has no drag effect... but also, there should be no thrust.
There's no incoming wind at the windspeed point.
It's turning, but what is going on there, as the vehicles obviously do go faster?
As propellors do develop thrust when being driven by motors regardless of the wind direction or speed.. wheels in this case, is that the thrust that moves it faster?
As I've said before, makes my head hurt. :)

I Ratant, Maybe I can help you out here.

As soon as the prop starts turning >0, it starts producing thrust. It does have drag but that drag is in the plane of the prop rotation as soon as the blade unstalls. (this happens at a much-much lower speed than WS that the cart is in!) This is not the windmilling drag you are referring to. Your pilot friend will tell you that a windmilling prop produces a lot of drag and he/she is right. However, we don't have a windmilling prop here. This is a powered prop on a correctly functioning DDWFTTW cart so it is producing thrust out the back, not drag. (Remember-the power is coming from the drive train-important point.)

The wind on the prop blades for a DDWFTTW cart is not the same as the cart is experiencing. The prop is being turned by the drivetrain so it produces thrust at all time and the faster it turns, the more thrust it produces.

At WS (0 Relative wind for the cart) the prop has a huge windspeed from rotation by virtue of it being driven by the drivetrain so it's producing quite a bit of thrust when the cart is at 0 WS. It is not in zero wind ever once it starts rotating!!:)

Take some aspirin for the headache! :)

Thanks,
 
That is over-simplified and naive arithmetic, Windgrins. If physics were like that, we could all be Professors.
There is quite a lot wrong with that analysis, but where does the power come from?

What power - A body in motion tends to stay in motion. At windspeed there's no drag. What would stop it?
 
I still have a text book from when I flew gliders that incorrectly describes how lift is generated (the same way that humber is wrong about how lift is generated).. not saying your friend has an incorrect model in his mind, but there are a TON of pilots out there that have the wrong idea concerning how lift is generated.
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Hell yes!
The Newton-Bernoulli arguments will go on forever!
On one forum I added a rotor-width flat plate to the bottom of the landing skids on a helicopter.
The plate could fold in the middle, to reduce the area the downwash would affect.
With the plate flat-out, running the heli up to full power, it couldn't lift.
Folding the plate down, the thing would go up.
Bernoulli working quite well, but Newton also :)
 
Humber,

I can't really answer for them but I would venture a guess that it would be helpful for anyone in his position to adopt the attitude:

If I know someone has done something that I don't know how to do and I want to learn it for free, I should adopt the attitude that being nice could have a positive impact and not being nice could have a negative impact on their willingness to waste their valuable time to teach me.

Your response was nice and I appreciate it. Thanks,
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Yeah, but I have lots of time to fiddle ingeniously adapt locally available materials to unusual uses.
I can buy kits to get the toy airplanes I fly, or get the basic materials and build from a sketch.
Both work for me.
This one cried out for doing it myself.
One of the local loud-mouths promoted a Kadet Fly-in at the AVTI field.
Said he'd mailed out fliers to all the clubs in the area.
He was an AMA associate VP at the time.
Come the day of the event, other than the 11 Kadet variations I had there,
4 others showed up, all from the Tailwinds.
 

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I Ratant, Maybe I can help you out here.

As soon as the prop starts turning >0, it starts producing thrust. It does have drag but that drag is in the plane of the prop rotation as soon as the blade unstalls. (this happens at a much-much lower speed than WS that the cart is in!) This is not the windmilling drag you are referring to. Your pilot friend will tell you that a windmilling prop produces a lot of drag and he/she is right. However, we don't have a windmilling prop here. This is a powered prop on a correctly functioning DDWFTTW cart so it is producing thrust out the back, not drag. (Remember-the power is coming from the drive train-important point.)

The wind on the prop blades for a DDWFTTW cart is not the same as the cart is experiencing. The prop is being turned by the drivetrain so it produces thrust at all time and the faster it turns, the more thrust it produces.

At WS (0 Relative wind for the cart) the prop has a huge windspeed from rotation by virtue of it being driven by the drivetrain so it's producing quite a bit of thrust when the cart is at 0 WS. It is not in zero wind ever once it starts rotating!!:)

Take some aspirin for the headache! :)


Thanks,
.
That was easy.
You shouldn't have lurked so long.
Thanks.
An exemplar of good advice, freely given.
 
OK Humber,

We have a radical disconnect here.

How about showing us a video of your treadmill cart you described?
 
... where does the power come from? The entire point is that there is no power at WS.

And you accuse others of being naive.

There is no power supplied by the wind to an object travelling at windspeed. (This is why you are still wrong to claim a balloon, released at more than windspeed, slows to less than windspeed.) But the propeller blades are moving. Windspeed from the cart's frame of reference is zero. Windspeed from the propeller blade's frame of reference is not zero. Blade speed from the frame of reference of the air interacting with the blade is not zero.
 
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That was easy.
You shouldn't have lurked so long.
Thanks.
An exemplar of good advice, freely given.
.
Almost like this graph from two weeks ago. :)
Which no one was willing to discuss. Dismiss, yes. Discuss, "No!"
 

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What power - A body in motion tends to stay in motion. At windspeed there's no drag. What would stop it?

In a vacuum, it may.
Have you ever thought how the wind can "pass through" the balloon to emerge at the other side, at the same speed? What if the balloon were enormous, wouldn't it from the very start of its journey, create a wind shadow before it?
If it happens then, when tied to the starting post, then there is no hope that the wind can go fast enough to work its way to the front, and ahead of the balloon. There is drag downwind. You can be assured of that, because sailboats can't go ddw to WS. Nor can the lowest loss vehicle on the planet: the ice cart.
Why is the atmosphere not full of things that achieved windspeed, but could never stop?
 
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.An exemplar of good advice, freely given.

Yes, just like the following, given freely and confirmed freely by many on this thread.

... the propeller doesn't wait for wind speed to begin producing thrust. If it did, the vehicle could never reach wind speed on it's own.

... the blades of the spinning rotor act as sails from standstill to full speed -- this never changes nor stops happening at *any* speed from zero on up.


The blades on the BB rotor function as a sail at *all speeds*(including zero), ....
 
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Almost like this graph from two weeks ago. :)
Which no one was willing to discuss. Dismiss, yes. Discuss, "No!"

OK, I'll discuss that graph. I don't have any data to back this up but your green line is probably greatly exaggerated over actual. It does start increasing after WS and this is why the cart eventually reaches a steady state faster than the wind. It, plus, frictional losses eventually exceed prop thrust. My bet is that the prop thrust line is not nearly as linear and is very low at low RPM but rapidly builds as the cart nears wind speed. Again, a guess but very little of this carts low speed power comes from the "bluff body" effects of the wind once moving at all. JB or Spork probably can answer this for real quickly. I don't recall any instrumented thrust curves for the BB but they may have posted them earlier.

Regards,
 
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In a vacuum, it may.
Have you ever thought how the wind can "pass through" the balloon to emerge at the other side, at the same speed? What if the balloon were enormous, wouldn't it from the very start of its journey, create a wind shadow before it?
If it happens then, when tied to the starting post, then there is no hope that the wind can go fast enough to work its way to the front, and ahead of the balloon. There is drag downwind. You can be assured of that, because sailboats can't go ddw to WS. Nor can the lowest loss vehicle on the planet: the ice cart.
Why is the atmosphere not full of things that achieved windspeed, but could never stop?

You don't get that when the baloon is at windspeed it is not moving at all relative to the wind??

Ah, no, relative movement does seem to confuse you somewhat.
 
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