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Merged Dakota Access Pipeline

marplots said:
If you are going to beat that drum, try national parks as a better analogy.
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NoahFence said:
I think the 9/11 memorial is suitable as a "Sacred Site".
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The difference comes in when we look for a compromise. What would it take to avoid going directly through it? For a memorial, even Arlington, the answer is a few miles of reroute. I don't think that fits the pipeline situation very well.
 
Nakani said:
Not sure what this has to do with my post? I was making fun of EHocking's lame idea to teach the Lakota (Indians live in India Btw.) a lesson.

I think they have learned from history and know that anything white people put on paper is worthless. The best way to stop the pipeline is to physically stop it.
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They've actually had quite a few wins in court and in Congress. And Indians is quite correct, although Plains Indians would fit this group better.

When one is uncertain about whether Indians from India or Indians from the Americas (both North and South) is the topic, context is a good guide. The location of the pipeline does this quite nicely.
 
NoahFence said:
I think the 9/11 memorial is suitable as a "Sacred Site".
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I think that the people who consider the 9/11 memorial site sacred know where it is. In this case the sacred sites were just "discovered", and no matter where this pipeline was going to go they would have "discovered" sacred sites along that route as well. Diminishes the idea of sacred sites to nothing.
 
marplots said:
Someone's fear of a possible accident shouldn't outgun actual professional engineers designing this stuff.

If there is a spill, then the Indians can sue to recover, not before.

Land worship is stupidly pagan and an embarrassment to educated Native Americans. If some subset of Luddite Indians don't want to drive or use electricity, that's fine. We allow the Amish to exist. But otherwise, we should clue them in to where that gasoline comes from.
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Because there hasn't been a pipeline leak ever, with all those expert engineers. :rolleyes:
 
William Parcher said:
CNN: "Protesters physically assaulted private security officers hired by Dakota Access Pipeline. The security officers were hit and jabbed with fence posts and flagpoles," the sheriff's department said. "According to several reports from security officers, knives were pulled on them or they witnessed protestors with large knives."

The sheriff's department also said two guard dogs were injured.

But protesters disputed that account, CNN affiliate KFYR said. Demonstrators said the guards used pepper spray and tear gas on the activists, and some protesters were injured by the guards' dogs.
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Shouldn't be hard for the workers to show some video of the knives and assaults. The protestors have video of the dogs attacking people, bite wounds and blood around one dog's mouth.

Were I a protestor, I'd certainly carry some capsaicin spray to use on the dogs.
 
Wayward son said:
I think that the people who consider the 9/11 memorial site sacred know where it is. In this case the sacred sites were just "discovered", and no matter where this pipeline was going to go they would have "discovered" sacred sites along that route as well. Diminishes the idea of sacred sites to nothing.
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Irrelevant.

It's up to them to declare a site sacred, and it's up to the government to comply.

At least it should be.

Anyway, the government just put a stop to the pipeline there.
 
Nakani said:
(Indians live in India Btw.)
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I've known quite a few Native Americans/American Indians (various Shoshoni, Paiute, and Miwok I've worked with over the years) who were fine with being called "Indian", and even used the word to describe themselves. Some people object, some don't. If you are Dine and don't like to be called "Indian", I am fine with that - but as I say, I've worked with people from other tribes who prefer "American Indian" or even just "Indian". As with most potentially controversial drescriptives for people, it is best to ask the people or organizations a person interacts with.

Besides, once you get down to it, "India" is just a made up word for Bharat. Bharat is populated by Bharatia, or Bharatjani.

marplots said:
Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Indians on the warpath never works. Indians in court at least has a chance.
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The occupation of Alcatraz worked very well for advancing the agenda of American-Indian rights. These guys are not on the warpath. They are fighting in court, and having protests as well. Court for the law, protests and civil disobediance for public opinion. They currently seem to be doing very well with the public opinion thing, so I would say the protests are working
 
Mumbles said:
A lot of the engineers of that sort (Not my line of work) actually get annoyed when things aren't maintained properly, but can't do anything about it.

Anyway, the Obama Administration has stopped construction while it's reconsidered.
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Joint Statement from the Department of Justice, the Department of the Army and the Department of the Interior Regarding Standing Rock Sioux Tribe v. U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

The Army will not authorize constructing the Dakota Access pipeline on Corps land bordering or under Lake Oahe until it can determine whether it will need to reconsider any of its previous decisions regarding the Lake Oahe site under the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) or other federal laws. Therefore, construction of the pipeline on Army Corps land bordering or under Lake Oahe will not go forward at this time. The Army will move expeditiously to make this determination, as everyone involved — including the pipeline company and its workers — deserves a clear and timely resolution. In the interim, we request that the pipeline company voluntarily pause all construction activity within 20 miles east or west of Lake Oahe.

“Furthermore, this case has highlighted the need for a serious discussion on whether there should be nationwide reform with respect to considering tribes’ views on these types of infrastructure projects. Therefore, this fall, we will invite tribes to formal, government-to-government consultations on two questions: (1) within the existing statutory framework, what should the federal government do to better ensure meaningful tribal input into infrastructure-related reviews and decisions and the protection of tribal lands, resources, and treaty rights; and (2) should new legislation be proposed to Congress to alter that statutory framework and promote those goals.
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In other words, the aggressive moves with the bulldozers and security have scored an own goal. They might have killed their own project, and at a minimum they ave greatly increased the cost and lengthened the schedule.
 
crescent said:
I've known quite a few Native Americans/American Indians (various Shoshoni, Paiute, and Miwok I've worked with over the years) who were fine with being called "Indian", and even used the word to describe themselves. Some people object, some don't. If you are Dine and don't like to be called "Indian", I am fine with that - but as I say, I've worked with people from other tribes who prefer "American Indian" or even just "Indian". As with most potentially controversial drescriptives for people, it is best to ask the people or organizations a person interacts with.

Besides, once you get down to it, "India" is just a made up word for Bharat. Bharat is populated by Bharatia, or Bharatjani.
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I think Native Americans use the word like black people call themselves the "N-word", I don't feel it is appropriate for others.

It was a mistake made by some guy lost at sea, that was never deemed important enough to correct. It bothers me because It says their culture/identity is not important enough to acknowledge. Go to Europe and call everyone "Americans" because they look similar and you are going to have a problem. Just like Germany, Scotland, England, etc, every tribe has it's own unique history and culture. It would be nice if we could acknowledge this by using the proper names instead of just saying, "Indians". I cringe every time I hear a white person say that word because it just demonstrates indifference and a lack of respect.

But I digress, this is off topic.
 
It's not about sacred sites, it's about having drinkable water. The pipeline eventually WOULD leak and pollute the water. As white people in Colorado know, once the town's water source is contaminated, they might as well just leave. No one will ever do anything about it.

The costs of building a pipeline never include the long-term costs that will always be paid by the people living near it.
 
Nakani said:
I think Native Americans use the word like black people call themselves the "N-word", I don't feel it is appropriate for others.

It was a mistake made by some guy lost at sea, that was never deemed important enough to correct. It bothers me because It says their culture/identity is not important enough to acknowledge. Go to Europe and call everyone "Americans" because they look similar and you are going to have a problem. Just like Germany, Scotland, England, etc, every tribe has it's own unique history and culture. It would be nice if we could acknowledge this by using the proper names instead of just saying, "Indians". I cringe every time I hear a white person say that word because it just demonstrates indifference and a lack of respect.

But I digress, this is off topic.
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Again, some of the American Indians I've known don't feel that way. We discussed what words to use, and they made it clear they were not the least offended by "Indian". One pointed out that "Native American" includes a mispronunciation of the name of an Italian Cartographer and is at least as foreign to them as "Indian".

The Lakota probably don't like the word "Indian", as you say. But the opinion is varied from tribe to tribe, band to band, person to person. At one multi-tribe pow-wow I attended, they made it clear that "aboriginal" is very offensive, but stated, over the PA, that American Indian, Native American, Indigenous, and First Nations were all acceptable.
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
It's not about sacred sites, it's about having drinkable water. The pipeline eventually WOULD leak and pollute the water. As white people in Colorado know, once the town's water source is contaminated, they might as well just leave. No one will ever do anything about it.

The costs of building a pipeline never include the long-term costs that will always be paid by the people living near it.
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How could you possibly know this?
 
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