Continuation - Ukraine erupts in riots and general strikes

[magellan]

True, sometimes even claimed to be a fallacy.



That's not the problem with it though, it's used as a "counterargument" to the other way around.

Let's use an example. Country A has killed a million people and country B has killed a thousand.

A: "B has killed a thousand people."
B: "A has killed a million people."
A: "Whataboutism."

The first claim is then usually "B didn't refute A's statement". How this even needs saying is a mystery, as it's quite obvious that B didn't say "A has killed a million people therefor I didn't kill any." The claim is then extended to 1. "B should refute A's statement" or 2. "B's statement is irrelevant." Both of these are quite questionable.

1. Why should A be unimpeded to make statements yet B be restricted to statements that imply the negation of A's statements?

1a. A was the first to get an accusation in. Then it's quite simple, just keep up an ever-changing barrage of accusations against the other side. I think they call this "the media." The advantage here is also that you don't actually require any evidence, you merely need to claim that you have it.

1b. A is inherently entitled to restrict the possible set of statements to be made by the other side. This could be that "American exceptionalism" thing. It's not very convincing.

2. B's statement would be irrelevant to what exactly? Let's split up A's statement into two equivalent ones. "A thousand people got killed. B did it." B's statement would certainly be relevant to the former, but not to the latter.

In conclusion, the problem has nothing to do with people getting killed but with who's doing it. A way to look at it could be a mudslinging contest where A, by claiming "whataboutism" as some sort of magical phrase, is simply complaining about mud coming back his way because either "my mud got in first" or "my mud is better."

Thank you for the more patient explanation.
But one must remember that it hasn't got to be a tit for tat. For example people killed by A vs people killed by B. The X in what about X can be anything. I think one of the original examples found on the web was "US build better cars" "What about lynching"

The posters in this thread all wanted to post "What about freedom of the press in Russia?" but after I said they would they couldn't. So they went to the next best thing: What about russian imperialism.

 

[Ziggurat]

The posters in this thread all wanted to post "What about freedom of the press in Russia?" but after I said they would they couldn't. So they went to the next best thing: What about russian imperialism.

You introduced imperialism into the conversation, not me. Or did you forget?

 

[magellan]

You introduced imperialism into the conversation, not me. Or did you forget?

And I think it was you who turned it into western imperialism.
I merely stated that whataboutism was an imperialist propaganda tactic from cold war times. Never said anything wether it was US or Russian imperialism.
And that whataboutism would be the answers we get on the question of ukrainian blacklisting.
And whataboutism they were.

Anybody using kaspersky? Stop it! You are supporting the enemy!!!!1111!!!

 

[magellan]

And of course not a word about how a molotov cocktail throwing terrorist freedom fighter could turn into a grenade throwing freedom fighter terrorist.

 

[Ziggurat]

And I think it was you who turned it into western imperialism.
I merely stated that whataboutism was an imperialist propaganda tactic from cold war times. Never said anything wether it was US or Russian imperialism.

Yeah, no. Let me remind you what you said, since you seem to have forgotten.

This will of course be "whataboutism", an old imperialist propaganda trick, developed during the cold war, where every mention of problems in the west is deflected by countering with problems in the east.

Your reference to imperialist propaganda was specifically about defending the west and attacking the east, which means that you only labelled the west as imperialist, not the east. To now claim that "imperialist" was supposed to apply to both sides is laughable. You quite clearly didn't intend it as such when you said it. Nor did you even challenge my interpretation at the time, but only after having forgotten that you introduced the term to begin with do you try to resort to such a feeble excuse.

 

[tyr_13]

Is it alright to use Nazis to suppress dissent in a foreign country in order to grab its resources? Good question.

Not what I asked, not even next to what I asked.

So let's move the goalpost from what you claimed (it is implicit in your argument, not stated outright which of course doesn't mean you didn't claim it), to what is implicit in this dodge.

Is it alright to invade countries you claim have Nazis suppressing dissent?

 

[Childlike Empress]

 

[Ziggurat]

Communist propaganda isn't what it used to be. Where are the upraised fists? I am disappoint.

 

[Childlike Empress]

"Upraised fists" are very much understood as the symbol of designed "colour revolutions" these days. They tried this in Ukraine the first time in orange. The second time it was bloody red and omitting the symbol.

 

[Childlike Empress]

We still have the "friendly fascism" Svoboda symbol for what it's worth, though.

 

[Childlike Empress]

With Ukraine so thoroughly out of the news these days, this is perhaps worth a bump:

A ranking of the richest people in Ukraine published by Novoye Vremya shows that all top ten oligarchs have lost wealth in the year since the last ranking, except one: President Petro Poroshenko who climbed from position nine to position six, increasing his net worth by 163 million US$ in one year from 0.816 to 0.979 billion US$. The most dramatic losses were suffered by "King of Donbass" Rinat Akhmetov whose net worth shrunk by more than 50%, leaving him still in the top spot with 4.5 (formerly 10.1) billion US$.

 

[caveman1917]

Their new "anti-communist" laws have passed a couple of days ago as well. Singing the internationale now gets you up to 5 years in prison (10 years if you do it in group). This of course in conjunction with a law elevating the Nazi-side of Ukraine in WW2 to "heroes of Ukraine" status.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Latest adventure in Banderastan: As a result of terrorist activity by a bunch of deranged Right Sektor thugs and confused Tatar "activists", there's an emergency and a shortage of energy in Crimea, as well as an emergency power unloading in several Ukrainian nuclear plants. I'll refrain from summarizing, you'll need evidence to believe it anyway...

 

[Childlike Empress]

Yats almost removed at the Rada today:

 

[jimbob]

Bump

We still have the "friendly fascism" Svoboda symbol for what it's worth, though.

[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Svoboda_logo-2.svg/392px-Svoboda_logo-2.svg.png[/qimg]

About this time (September/October, depending on the region) various rebel factions had been ousting humanitarian aid agencies:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ls-expel-medecins-sans-frontieres-from-region

Rebels in Ukraine have ousted an international task force of doctors in the country’s wartorn east, denying thousands of civilians urgent medical care.

The self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic has blacklisted Médecins sans Frontières, who said rebel chiefs gave no reason for the ban.

Bart Janssens, MSF’s director of operations, warned that the ruling is likely to lead to the deaths of patients and urged the rebels to reconsider. “As a medical organisation we ethically cannot accept being forced to abandon our patients,” he said.

Given that other aid agencies have been expelled form other regions, it looks like a concerted effort.

More recent developments:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/vladimir-putin-admits-russian-military-presence-ukraine

Vladimir Putin has for the first time admitted the presence of Russian military specialists in east Ukraine.

Russia has repeatedly denied a military presence in the conflict, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. But the Russian president conceded there were military intelligence officers operating in the country in a marathon press conference on Thursday.

Asked by a Ukrainian reporter an hour into the briefing about two Russian military intelligence officers captured by Kiev and currently on trial in Ukraine, Putin said: “We never said there were not people there who carried out certain tasks including in the military sphere.” He insisted this was not the same as regular Russian troops.

I meant to post this earlier as a counterweight to the rather one-eyed view presented about how the West is somehow to blame for everything in Ukraine.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Now they've banned the communist party which used to get around 20% of votes. That after the pro-putschist parties were creamed with partially one-digit results in the recent regional elections.

 

[Childlike Empress]

When Mischa Sackarschwilli is actually the good guy in a major brawl in government, you know the **** really hit the fan (he's "exposing corruption" like his handlers told him to do, only that his opponent Avakov (in black) happens to be a key figure in the putschist regime they run)... (all are speaking Russian, not Ukrainian btw)

 

[Childlike Empress]

More "funny" videos here: Ukraine: When the Right Sector Runs the Courtroom

On November 30, 100 members of the Right Sector stormed the Malinowski Court in Odessa. Security officers were simply pushed aside. Masked men and muscular women stood threateningly before the three judges. The judges had approved a ruling to release on bail five people detained since the violent events of May 2, 2014 in the city.

The judges were threatened by masked vigilantes if they didn’t sign letters of resignation. A video report captures the confrontation. It shows the anxious looks on the judges’ faces. They signed the resignation letters and exited the courtroom.

A short time later, the ruling to release the five anti-Maidan protesters was reversed, due, it was said, to “the failure to take account of certain facts”. Their detentions were extended for two months. [...]

 

[Puppycow]

Looks like that trade deal with the EU that started this whole spat is about to commence:

Russia Hits Ukraine With Tariffs Over Imminent Trade Deal With EU

BRUSSELS—Moscow said it would go through with punitive tariffs on Ukrainian products in January after European efforts to head off Russian retaliation against a sweeping EU-Ukraine trade deal failed.

The collapse of mediation talks among EU, Ukrainian and Russian officials on Monday came as the bloc extended its economic sanctions against Russia because of its military involvement in eastern Ukraine.

. . .

The trade agreement, set to go into effect Jan. 1, is part of a broader EU-Ukraine deal that was at the heart of Ukraine’s political crisis in 2014, when pro-Russia President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted from office during prolonged protests. Shortly afterward, Russia annexed Ukraine’s Crimea region and supported rebels in eastern Ukraine.

 

[Childlike Empress]

The German freelance journalist Mark Batalmai, who has lived in Donetsk since mid-2014 and worked embedded with the opolchenie^WP, has on Monday released his crowdfunded full-length documentary "Ukrainian Agony" in an English-language version (German-language original).

Highly recommended for those inside the "Western" propaganda bubble who want to check if there might be some serious unknown unknowns to their understanding about what happened in Ukraine in the last two years. Be aware that this is a documentary for adults, so there will be some rather gruesome details in addition to the rather gruesome bigger picture.