Continuation - Ukraine erupts in riots and general strikes

Mycroft said:
Do you remember how those Russians got there to begin with?
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Most of them were born there. Your point being?

Would you consider cleaning the Ukrainian Nation of "those Russians" a positive development? It would solve the problem you seem to be having with "those Russians" existing there.
 
Childlike Empress said:
This has a good chance of winning the dumbest post of the thread award, which is quite an achievement.
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Your logic seems to be that Russia has a claim to Ukraine because of historic ties to Ukraine, and shared ancestry.

NE Colorado has quite a few people as well whose ancestors lived in Ukraine - my great grandfather was born about 60 km north of Odessa. The climates are similar so the farming techniques did not need to be re-learned.

So really, I have just as strong of a claim to Ukrainian kinship as any Russian, as do the great majority of my relatives.
 
crescent said:
Your logic seems to be [...]
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I was answering Mycroft's question about how the Russians came there in the first place. And the answer is, the ancestors of the today peoples of Belorus, Russia and Ukraine managed to build a city called Kiev a good millenium ago which is today considered the original city of the Rus'.

Your "logic" seems to be that because some people in your ancestery took the rat line made it to the US, the people of North Carolina have a right to the soil that once was the Kievan Rus'.

Often in the "conversation" Yankistanis have about these topics they hear about from the Fake News peddlers, they aren't even aware that there is a common border, let alone a common history between these folks. And they have no idea how the texts you can read on sites like Fort Russ are rife with grievance about the tragic and utterly senseless "fraticidal war" that is fought there.

 
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Childlike Empress said:
Your "logic" seems to be that because some people in your ancestery took the rat line made it to the US, the people of North Carolina have a right to the soil that once was the Kievan Rus'.
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Colorado, not Carolina. Not that it matters. I've never been to the Carolinas.

Those of my ancestors who didn't take the "rat-line" were mostly killed in purges of the pre-revolutionary period or died in the holodomor. After the U.S.S.R fell, we traced our ancestry through baptismal records and cemeteries, there were no living people of our little ethnic group left by then. They were not ethnic Russian, but had been invited to settle there in an earlier time by the Imperial government.

It was the home of my ancestors, we have just as much right to it as anyone else whose ancestors lived there a century or two ago. That is to say, none at all. Just like Russia.
 
crescent said:
Colorado, not Carolina. Not that it matters. I've never been to the Carolinas.

Those of my ancestors who didn't take the "rat-line" were mostly killed in purges of the pre-revolutionary period or died in the holodomor. After the U.S.S.R fell, we traced our ancestry through baptismal records and cemeteries, there were no living people of our little ethnic group left by then. They were not ethnic Russian, but had been invited to settle there in an earlier time by the Imperial government.

It was the home of my ancestors, we have just as much right to it as anyone else whose ancestors lived there a century or two ago. That is to say, none at all. Just like Russia.
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Ah...the "Holdomor". Those were the "Good-ole-Days" of imperialism where ya' could starve the peasants from Bangladesh- to India - to Pakistan - to the Ukraine....and no one really cared. Hell...even America starved out the Plains Indians - shot all the Buffalo.

Yep...when the Peasants got "Uppitty", starvation was the solution.
 
Childlike Empress said:
Your "logic" seems to be that because some people in your ancestery took the rat line made it to the US, the people of North Carolina have a right to the soil that once was the Kievan Rus'.
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Not to be a historical pendant, but you realize that the Rus were Scandinavians who came, traded a little, conquered some and took over from the local elites, right?

Go back far enough and everyone can claim to be African.

Going by ancestry to determine if you have a right to occupy a particular piece of territory is stupid, unless you're named in the will. Sharing a common ancestry can make you more sympathetic to certain people if you identify with that group. Denying the latter is simply arrogant.
 
I expect to see increased pressure from the Russian invaders of Ukraine now that Putin's todie has taken up residence in the White House.
 
Mycroft said:
I found this quote which seems oddly appropo:

"All conquests, all genocides, all plunders have been eternally rationalized, painstakingly justified. Grand bogus concepts of charity, of ‘altruism’ have been erected. Subjugated nations have always been ruined in the name of some higher principles, in order to save them from themselves." Andre Vltchek.
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That is an excellent statement; "always" applicable, to "all conquests", as its author rightly observes.
 
Childlike Empress said:
Careful, from what I hear 1984 is the top-selling book in the US right now. Not afraid they will find out that the core double-think is "war crimes are commited in our name all over the world" vs. "we are the good guys" when you throw this stuff around? :cool:
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Classic tu quoque.

Russia is taking territory that doesn't belong to Russia, and they're (you're) using the same arguments (rationalizations) once used by Germany to annex Austria.

Regardless of what the United States is or isn't doing, that's still happening. Your "Whataboutism" is only a distraction, not a defense. That you turn to whataboutism is tacit admission that you know this expansionism is indefensible.
 
caveman1917 said:
Most of them were born there. Your point being?

Would you consider cleaning the Ukrainian Nation of "those Russians" a positive development? It would solve the problem you seem to be having with "those Russians" existing there.
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Would you like some more straw for that straw-man you're building?
 
Mycroft said:
Classic tu quoque.

Russia is taking territory that doesn't belong to Russia, and they're (you're) using the same arguments (rationalizations) once used by Germany to annex Austria.
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It looks more as the argument used by Germany to annex the Sudetenland, i.e. the so-called "defense of an ethnical minority"...
 
Degeneve said:
It looks more as the argument used by Germany to annex the Sudetenland, i.e. the so-called "defense of an ethnical minority"...
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Back when this fuss begun in 2014, a lot of us in the first party of this thread used the term "The Sudetenland Scenario".
 
Events of recent days definitely don't get enough coverage. You couldn't make this stuff up. Check out our news ticker. Today's events so far as just temporarily described by me (I usually write the Syria ticker and leave the Ukraine one to our resident expert):

ACLOS Ukraine ticker said:
5 Dec. Law Enforcement breaks into the Kiev appartment of Saakashvili, who manages to escape to the roof of the building where he threatens to jump off of it and tells the gathering crowd that he is about to get kidnapped. In the end he is detained by security forces. But then the van he is held in is attacked by crowds in the street and Saakashvili escapes to a church where he holds a speech calling for regime overthrow. Latest reports have him leading a march of several hundred people to the parliament, where General Prosecutor Luzenko gave him 24 hours to turn himself in.
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