Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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...No truther seems willing to provide a full theory. Why is that?
Where to start?

First most of those claiming to be truthers are trolls first with truther at best a distant secondary objective. The easiest way to play troll is to reflect some topic that the target has raised and pick a hole in it or twist it to further the trolling goal of keeping the opponent biting. You don't have to look far for examples - I'll point, you look!"

Then, for that portion which is genuine truther, there are some big problems. Let's illustrate with the 'controlled demolition' camp of trutherdom.

The most obvious big problem is that there was no controlled demolition. A related issue is that no truther anywhere has ever been able to construct a reasoned overall explanation for a method of CD which could stand scrutiny. CD is (just) technically plausible but there is simply no way it could have been done without getting found out.

Since there is no overall explanation coming even from the leading lights - Gage, Jones et al - the lesser lights right down to the small candles have no model of comprehensive explanation to repeat parrot fashion. That means they have to think which leads to two further barriers. (1) Their obviously limited competence in that activity; and (2) the reality that there almost certainly isn't a plausible CD scenario out there to be thought of.

So they lack the expertise to construct one of their own and there is probably no way that a comprehensive pro CD hypothesis could exist.

From that no winner position their second option is to force the debate of technical details to go continuously round and round in circles. "Was there thermXte residue on site?" A total waste of time if the objective is support a CD hypothesis. There was no CD. There could not have been CD for reasons in the domain of logistics and security. Simply put it could not be done without being found out. So the technical discussion is meaningless in the bigger picture.

If the technical discussion falters then switch to the human domain with "what are the qualifications of the person making statements" "Is it published in a peer reviewed journal?" More red herrings when the real question is "Is the claim correct or not?"

Has any truther ever seriously attempted to explain the logistic and security aspects of a CD hypothesis? No. They cannot.

And I have not even touched on the technical plan - the details of what charges on what locations to cut what members at what time to supplement the damage caused by aircraft impact and fire. Remember the CD has to disappear behind the cover story of plane hijacks and crashes.

So any genuine truther (if that is not an oxymoron :rolleyes: )
..any genuine truther supporting CD has an insurmountable challenge to demonstrate that CD is feasible.

The alternate facing the truther is to ensure that discussion/debate never focuses to a conclusion. The strategy is sow doubt and discontent. In full knowledge that no honest professional with relevant expertise will be fooled. And that a fair proportion of the intelligent lay population will likewise not be misled.

So we get an endless stream of bits of technical claims, each one totally out of context, with the aim of debate forever. And at that point the distinction between truther and troll probably becomes relevant.

And, whilst the foregoing referred to CD, it can easily be applied to the Pentagon and Shanksville branches - just change the technical details to suit. Add salt to taste. Simmer over a low stove....etc etc
 
There is another reaction that produces SO2 from gypsum at temperatures below 1000°C.

CaSO4 + SiO2 --> CaSiO3 +SO2 +1/2O2

This occurs at 900°C.

http://jdr.sagepub.com/content/60/8/1418.full.pdf

Silica or quartz can make up to 10% by weight in drywall according to this data sheet.
http://files.buildsite.com/dbderived-f/lafarge/derived_files/derived310562.pdf

So I think that settles it, there are many ways to produce SO2 from gypsum at the temperatures experienced by the corroded steel
I admire your tenacity but not your science. "May" is NOT scientific proof, it's supposition.

Incineration can may produce sulfur dioxide gas, and is banned in some states (CIWMB, 2009b)
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/wycd/waste/downloads/drywall-chapter10-28-10.pdf

CIWMB, 2009b
Incineration may produce toxic sulfur dioxide gas. (Drywall is not incinerated in California.)
http://www.p2pays.org/ref/34/33785.pdf

Thermal decomposition may yield sulfur oxides, and calcium oxide fumes (above 825oC)
http://files.buildsite.com/dbderived-f/lafarge/derived_files/derived310562.pdf


Dental gypsum bonded investments [molds for dentures] are NOT the same as drywall. Apples and oranges.

There is still NO scientific experiment showing that drywall emits sulfur dioxide in building fires nor is there any scientific evidence that sulfur dioxide could do the kind of damage that was done to the beam from WTC 7.

Jon Cole did an experiment and the beam was not corroded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDFV1HINw&feature=related
 
Simple Question #3:

Richard Gage's latest call for an Investigation includes this assertion:

The American Society of Safety Engineers reported that “the debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400°F to more than 2,800°F.”
Temperatures were as high as 727oC (1340oF) on the surface indicating hotter temperatures deep in the pile. There are quotes from different people giving a wide variety of temperatures.
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/3638/hotspotscompositrm5.jpg

the molten steel seems more likely to be melted aluminum
The aluminum cladding was blown up to 600 feet in all directions. Aluminum glows silvery in daylight. There is no science to support the claim that organic material mixed with aluminum to make it glow orange.

There is no reason to think that all the people who saw molten steel were mistaken and what they really saw was aluminum, other than not wanting to deal with the consequences.

the debris pile is cool enough to walk on and dig deep holes into (I have a photo of this) etc.
The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal and jet fuel. The health hazards are everywhere: the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies. (source)
 
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The aluminum cladding was blown up to 600 feet in all directions. Aluminum glows silvery in daylight. There is no science to support the claim that organic material mixed with aluminum to make it glow orange.

There is no reason to think that all the people who saw molten steel were mistaken and what they really saw was aluminum, other than not wanting to deal with the consequences.

We've been through this before Christopher. There's no reason to assume 'steel' by the virtue of the commonplace mistake that often happens as people use 'steel/metal' interchangebly. You can't determine, by eyesight, what metallic alloys or mix of metals a molten puddle consist of. It's not possible. And metals have an emission-spectra, not just steel. Then we have potential impurities that have been molten together with aluminum (that is not added solids unto an already molten material) which can certainly change the emissivity (aluminum is around .44 and plain old steel is at .35, and oxidation thereof combined with impurities like oil, plastic or glass can alter appearences notably).
It doesn't help your case when you launch absolutes about science. I've seen aluminum alloys pouring out in such colours, therefor it's impossible for me to take your absolutes seriously. They can't convince me, 'cause I've been there, you haven't you see?

Temperatures were as high as 727oC (1340oF) on the surface indicating hotter temperatures deep in the pile.

So, perfectly within reason for stoaking fires fueled by hydrocarbon compounds et al then (actually, many times they get a lot hotter).
 
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Yet no one lost their job, got court-martialed, or reprimanded in any way.

True. Which suggests after-the-fact ass-covering. In no way, however, does it even vaguely suggest any form of complicity; indeed, if we accept that there was incompetence in preventing the attacks, this assumes by definition that attempts to prevent the attacks were being made. So please take the question of whether specific individuals should be sanctioned for failures on 9/11 to the US Politics forum, as it has no relevance to conspiracy theories.

Dave
 
I admire your tenacity but not your science. "May" is NOT scientific proof, it's supposition.

Incineration can may produce sulfur dioxide gas, and is banned in some states (CIWMB, 2009b)
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/wycd/waste/downloads/drywall-chapter10-28-10.pdf

CIWMB, 2009b
Incineration may produce toxic sulfur dioxide gas. (Drywall is not incinerated in California.)
http://www.p2pays.org/ref/34/33785.pdf

Thermal decomposition may yield sulfur oxides, and calcium oxide fumes (above 825oC)
http://files.buildsite.com/dbderived-f/lafarge/derived_files/derived310562.pdf


Dental gypsum bonded investments [molds for dentures] are NOT the same as drywall. Apples and oranges.

There is still NO scientific experiment showing that drywall emits sulfur dioxide in building fires nor is there any scientific evidence that sulfur dioxide could do the kind of damage that was done to the beam from WTC 7.

Jon Cole did an experiment and the beam was not corroded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDFV1HINw&feature=related

So, I take it that you just struck out what you didn't like, and added your own words. Gotcha. That's pretty....well....typical of you.

Does John Cole's experiement show innergranular melting? How about the corrosion attack? Yes? No?

The answer is no. No it does not. It shows NONE of the same characteristics as what we found in 7WTC.

Watching you post is like watching you brush your teeth with butt cream, and seeing people TELL you it's butt cream, but you CONTINUE to use the butt cream as tooth paste.

Wow, the arrogance and stupidity. It's staggering.
 
There is no reason to think that all the people who saw molten steel were mistaken and what they really saw was aluminum, other than not wanting to deal with the consequences.

No, it's YOU who cannot deal with the fact the people not trained as metalurgists, could be wrong about identifying some molten metal of some sort.

How about the dozen or so other metals that I have posted and elaborated about? Could they have been the source? Sure. Can we rule them out? No, of course not.


The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal and jet fuel. The health hazards are everywhere: the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies. (source)

I have never heard of anyone going through 3 pairs of boots a day. I have searched for any news report citing someone from FDNY saying that, and all I get are links back to this foolish link you posted. No official source. Do you have another linkey that I may look at?

I have never heard of 3 pairs of boots a day.

Not to mention that by this time, there is NO jet fuel left to burn.

Notice your own link says molten METAL?? Why doesn't it say steel?
Oh, right, because you're still brushing your teeth with butt cream.
 
so we get an endless stream of bits of technical claims, each one totally out of context, with the aim of debate forever. And at that point the distinction between truther and troll probably becomes relevant irrelevant.

ftfy :)
 
So, I take it that you just struck out what you didn't like, and added your own words. Gotcha. That's pretty....well....typical of you.

Does John Cole's experiement show innergranular melting? How about the corrosion attack? Yes? No?

The answer is no. No it does not. It shows NONE of the same characteristics as what we found in 7WTC.

Watching you post is like watching you brush your teeth with butt cream, and seeing people TELL you it's butt cream, but you CONTINUE to use the butt cream as tooth paste.

Wow, the arrogance and stupidity. It's staggering.

I rarely talk to him because his responses are often so bizzare and rarely refute the point.
There are plenty of articles stating that talk about heat humidity and fire producing sulfur,
http://www.ehow.com/how_5106151_recycle-drywall.html
"You'll help save landfill space and reduce toxic gas emissions since the gypsum in drywall emits hydrogen sulfide or sulfur dioxide gases when it is buried or burned. "
http://www.cswdc.co.uk/emissions-data.html?id=35
How is Sulphur Dioxide formed?
Many waste streams and fossil fuels contain sulphur. Sulphur is present in the waste stream from batteries, plastics, waste oil, and gypsum-filled wallboard. It is released into the combustion gases during incineration and reacts with the oxygen in the air to produce sulphur dioxide.

We also know that Sulphur Dioxide was at ground zero at dangerously high levels.

Yet he comes up with strange ways to simply state I do not believe.
Its the same with most everyone of his points. I don't believe x because of y, and when y is wrong he goes to z, when z is proven wrong he pushes the goal posts even higher.:boggled:
 
9/11 CT General Discussion

I think that this goes here. From my inbox:

Chicago 9/11 Truth Activists is now sponsored by RON PAUL 2012!

Getting ready to FIRE UP

This is coming right on the heels of the recent "Architecture of Destruction" event:

Monday, April 11, 2011
7:00 PM

The Center for Visual & Performing Arts
1040 Ridge Road Munster, IN


7 9/11 Truth Advocates went​
 
http://www.cswdc.co.uk/emissions-data.html?id=35
How is Sulphur Dioxide formed?
Many waste streams and fossil fuels contain sulphur. Sulphur is present in the waste stream from batteries, plastics, waste oil, and gypsum-filled wallboard. It is released into the combustion gases during incineration and reacts with the oxygen in the air to produce sulphur dioxide.
Well done.
This is an authoritative source that clearly states that gypsum-filled wallboard releases sulphur in an incinerator.

This is quite different than the bad drywall that releases sulfur dioxide over a period of years or someone saying sulfur dioxide may be created during incineration.

When presented with evidence that contradicts my position, I change my position to fit the new data. Unlike people here who will never concede a point, I concede this point.
 
Well done.
This is an authoritative source that clearly states that gypsum-filled wallboard releases sulphur in an incinerator.

This is quite different than the bad drywall that releases sulfur dioxide over a period of years or someone saying sulfur dioxide may be created during incineration.

When presented with evidence that contradicts my position, I change my position to fit the new data. Unlike people here who will never concede a point, I concede this point.

Wow, thank you Chris!:eye-poppi
 
Wow, finally chris. Maybe you should apologize to Sunsteeler for ignoring him and wasting his time.

The same thing has already been posted. Remember this post?

I admire your tenacity but not your science. "May" is NOT scientific proof, it's supposition.

Incineration can may produce sulfur dioxide gas, and is banned in some states (CIWMB, 2009b)
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/wycd/waste/downloads/drywall-chapter10-28-10.pdf

CIWMB, 2009b
Incineration may produce toxic sulfur dioxide gas. (Drywall is not incinerated in California.)
http://www.p2pays.org/ref/34/33785.pdf

Thermal decomposition may yield sulfur oxides, and calcium oxide fumes (above 825oC)
http://files.buildsite.com/dbderived-f/lafarge/derived_files/derived310562.pdf


Dental gypsum bonded investments [molds for dentures] are NOT the same as drywall. Apples and oranges.

There is still NO scientific experiment showing that drywall emits sulfur dioxide in building fires nor is there any scientific evidence that sulfur dioxide could do the kind of damage that was done to the beam from WTC 7.

Jon Cole did an experiment and the beam was not corroded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQDFV1HINw&feature=related


About ****** time you realized that you're talking out of your ass.
 
True. Which suggests after-the-fact ass-covering. In no way, however, does it even vaguely suggest any form of complicity; indeed, if we accept that there was incompetence in preventing the attacks, this assumes by definition that attempts to prevent the attacks were being made. So please take the question of whether specific individuals should be sanctioned for failures on 9/11 to the US Politics forum, as it has no relevance to conspiracy theories.

Dave

Since when does the media or Congress give the military a pass?
 
No, it's YOU who cannot deal with the fact the people not trained as metalurgists, could be wrong about identifying some molten metal of some sort.
Your assumption that only a trained metallurgist can identify molten steel is just a way of hand waving all the witnesses who saw molten steel. It's like saying that only a rocket scientist is qualified to identify a rocket.

You will do mental gymnastics to deny any account of molten steel and you will never even admit that what these witnesses saw could have been molten steel.

For example:
O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel," he said.
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/messengerinquirer_recoveryworker.html

'In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel,' Fuchek said.
http://gcn.com/articles/2002/09/09/handheld-app-eased-recovery-tasks.aspx

[FONT=&quot]NYDS played a major role in debris removal — everything from molten steel beams to human remains
http://wasteage.com/mag/waste_dday_ny_sanitation/

[/FONT] "Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
http://www.jhsph.edu/Publications/Special/Welch.htm

How about the dozen or so other metals that I have posted and elaborated about? Could they have been the source? Sure. Can we rule them out? No, of course not.
There were no other metals in concentration in the debris pile. The aluminum cladding was blown up to 600 feet in all directions. The copper and other metals you mentioned were pulverized and mixed with all the other contents of the buildings.

I have never heard of anyone going through 3 pairs of boots a day. I have searched for any news report citing someone from FDNY saying that, and all I get are links back to this foolish link you posted. No official source. Do you have another linkey that I may look at?
"Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3731/is_200112/ai_n9015802/

ETA:
At 1:50
The fuel was so hot from the jet fuel that it was literally steaming. Your boots would melt in certain areas. That's how hot it was. The steel was coming out red in certain areas for the first couple weeks at least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnLW0euAgbM
 
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What the hell are you talking about? Gave the military a "pass" on what?


I think he may be suggesting that the media didn't criticize the "military" response on 9/11. I also think that's because he assumed that when ladmo commented that "all the preventive measures [...] failed" ladmo was referring to the military response.

I don't believe there's much to criticize about the military response to the attacks, so that may explain why the media gave them a "pass".
 
Your assumption that only a trained metallurgist can identify molten steel is just a way of hand waving all the witnesses who saw molten steel. It's like saying that only a rocket scientist is qualified to identify a rocket.

Nope, not an assumption, certainly fact.

Can you identify this substance?

mediaManager.jpg


How about this one?

whatisthis.jpg


Take your best guess.


You will do mental gymnastics to deny any account of molten steel and you will never even admit that what these witnesses saw could have been molten steel.

No, not mental gymnastics, more like math.

Steel becomes a liquid at 2800 deg. F.

Hydrocarbon fires burn at a MAX of about 2000 deg. F.

Do you need a calculator?



For example:
O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel," he said.
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/messengerinquirer_recoveryworker.html

I find that very hard to believe, especially considering the fires were out in December, and only very small fires still burned.


'In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel,' Fuchek said.
http://gcn.com/articles/2002/09/09/handheld-app-eased-recovery-tasks.aspx

[FONT=&quot]NYDS played a major role in debris removal — everything from molten steel beams to human remains
http://wasteage.com/mag/waste_dday_ny_sanitation/

[/FONT] "Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
http://www.jhsph.edu/Publications/Special/Welch.htm

Awesome. Now, can they identify steel by looks alone? I cannot. Especially molten steel.


There were no other metals in concentration in the debris pile. The aluminum cladding was blown up to 600 feet in all directions. The copper and other metals you mentioned were pulverized and mixed with all the other contents of the buildings.

Do you realize how stupid this is? To assume that every piece of steel was sent outwards, away from the pile? Why is there not a ring of aluminum around the WTC pile?

Why is this aluminum IN the pile?

http://s63.photobucket.com/albums/h...TC%20Attack/?action=view&current=3columns.jpg

(right behind the dog, center of picture)

But, you said that all the aluminum was sent 600' in all directions? How is that possible that it eneded up underneath some of the core columns?


"Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3731/is_200112/ai_n9015802/

The link states what I already know. Yes, it did at times melt our boots. But, it was to the point that they got stickey as we walked, and would make them very slippery when they were soft, and we stepped into something else that attached to the underside of our boots.

However, nowehere does it say that "FDNY went through 3 pairs of boots per firefighter, per day, on average."

In fact, I would find that VERY hard to believe, considering some of our boots cost upwards of $300 each pair.

http://www.thefirestore.com/store/category.cfm/cid_46621_lion_technical_footwear/


Here are some specs on firefighter boots.

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/ROP/1971-A2006-ROC-Preprint.pdf

(I'll give you a hint. Our boots must withstand a temperature of 500 deg. F for 5 minutes. )
 
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