Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[triforcharity]

You know, I wonder how realistic it is for molten steel to be picked up by a crab claw made of steel.


I mean, if you own that thing, aren't you going to be a bit hesitant to use your steel claw to pick up molten steel?

I mean, other than the fact that A-MOLTEN steel could not be picked up by this type of machine, considering it's a CLAW machine, and B-It would have caused the thing to fail due to the EXTREME heat that it would have endured.

It's amazing that Chris7 seems to think that MOLTEN steel would have SQUARE edges.....

He even self debunks himself!! Amusing!

 

[Christopher7]

You know, I wonder how realistic it is for molten steel to be picked up by a crab claw made of steel.
I mean, if you own that thing, aren't you going to be a bit hesitant to use your steel claw to pick up molten steel?

We have been thru this before. Do you think Peter Tully and Mark Loizeaux are idiots?

Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of “literally molten steel” at the World Trade Center.
Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris.

"I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators. I'm not sure where you can get a copy."
Mark Liozeaux

A steel crab claw or bucket will not melt when picking up molten steel. It takes a while for steel to heat up to 2750^oF. The buckets/crab claws would be damaged and perhaps ruined by molten steel hardening and sticking to them but the molten steel had to be removed and that is just part of the cost of removal.

ETA: The semi-solid glob is definitely not aluminum.

According to this blacksmith color chart the steel dripping of the bottom of the semi-solid glob is about 1500^oC

 

[NoahFence]

The buckets/crab claws would be damaged and perhaps ruined by molten steel hardening and sticking to them

Which is why, if I owned one of those, I would be as far away from molten steel as I could.

 

[beachnut]

We have been thru this before. Do you think Peter Tully and Mark Loizeaux are idiots?

Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of “literally molten steel” at the World Trade Center.
Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris.

"I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators. I'm not sure where you can get a copy."
Mark Liozeaux

A steel crab claw or bucket will not melt when picking up molten steel. It takes a while for steel to heat up to 2750^oF. The buckets/crab claws would be damaged and perhaps ruined by molten steel hardening and sticking to them but the molten steel had to be removed and that is just part of the cost of removal.

Now you say the glowing stuff is at 2750, when you said the color was 1400 f?

No melted steel was found, there are zero photos of pools of steel. But go ahead, ensure your failure for 10 years, to infinity.

Your claims make no sense and you debunk yourself. Like Gage, you are on track for 10 years of failure to figure out 911; Gage fails so he can keep getting money from those who can't figure out 911.

 

[George 152]

A pincher claw could not pick up MOLTEN steel to begin with. That is another classic troofer error. One that has been repeated so many times despite the obvious being pointed out to them.

By the time it was sufficiently uncovered to be 'picked up' it would no longer be molten !

 

[Clayton Moore]

Wow! You've already forgotten that PM you sent to me here?

Given the fact that you have had no comment on the responses to your "85 videos" at the Pentagon and "missing $2.3 trillion", one thing I know truthers are not seeking is the truth.

My entire PM which was in response to 2 unsolicited PMs.

Shut up dufus. You self appointed debunkers must be the dumbest beings on the planet.

The money? It was and still is unaccounted for.

As for the 85 videos, they are no where to be seen.

 

[DGM]

The money? It was and still is unaccounted for.

What do you mean by "unaccounted for"? Are you talking the sum or exact distribution (within each vendor)?

 

[BasqueArch]

.....

That photo was taken September 27, 2001, 16 days after the collapse , proving that whatever you think this means, it was not caused by thermwhatever.

What else you got.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

I mean, other than the fact that A-MOLTEN steel could not be picked up by this type of machine, considering it's a CLAW machine, and B-It would have caused the thing to fail due to the EXTREME heat that it would have endured.

It's amazing that Chris7 seems to think that MOLTEN steel would have SQUARE edges.....

He even self debunks himself!! Amusing!

OMG.... I can't believe they resurrected the famous "molten steel that holds its shape and can be picked up by machinery without dripping" photo. My God... is this a sign of truther stagnation, or what?

I guess this is a molten horseshoe.

Ahhh... a molten iron bar.



There's a difference between getting red hot due to a fire (which nobody denies occurred at Ground Zero) and supposedly having undergone melting due to thermite (in which case, you wouldn't be able to pick it up without a bucket... that itself would most likely melt due to the heat too). So let's get one thing straight: That's not only not a sign of thermite, but given that it would've been extracted what, a day to several days to perhaps weeks after the fact (depending on when that machinery got to Ground Zero), this is a contradiction of the possibility. Again, you don't get even hours of thermite burn, let alone days to weeks; you get seconds to a minute or so. Tops. It's not the red hot metal that refutes the notion of thermite, it's the logistics of getting construction machinery there to pick it up that does.

ETA: Ah. BasqueArch got in while I was composing (and being otherwise distracted ). 16 days, huh? Yep. Like I said: The photo is a contradiction of the possibility. It cannot be used because thermite does not react that long. This was due to the rubble pile fires.

 

[Christopher7]

Which is why, if I owned one of those, I would be as far away from molten steel as I could.

Equipment ruined picking up the molten steel would be a CODB. The contractors would just add the cost to the bill or write it off as a CODB.

George152
Molten does not necessarily mean a liquid that can be poured. Steel, like lava, is semi-solid as it goes from solid to liquid. We can see this range in the crab claw photo.

Beachnut
The orange to yellow part is in the 1400^oF range. The stuff dripping off the bottom is about 2750^oF. You will find something sarcastic to say about that but one thing is certain:

This is definitely NOT Aluminum.
The melting temperature of aluminum is about 1220^oF.

 

[Christopher7]

It's kind of silly to think that the aluminum from the lower floors would somehow fly out far far away from the debris pile and or that large sections couldn't be entangled within the collapse.

What part of "dispersed" don't you understand? Justin had the best explanation for concentrations if aluminum but, as I said before, the folks here will NEVER concede a point. They will think up alternatives but NEVER admit that there what Peter Tully, Mark Loizeaux and all the others said was was molten steel could even possibly be molten steel.

Molten aluminum is silvery in daylight. Do you think Peter Tully, Mark Loizeaux and all the others are idiots?

As for the photo, it's looks like a translucent piece of molten glass with unmelted steel rods in it. Its the closest match I've seen.
The photo was shown to Alan Pense professor emeritus of Metallurgical engineering at Lehigh University.
He stated: "The photos shown to support melted steel are, to me, either unconvincing...or show matericals that appear to be other than steel. One of these photos appears to me to be mostly glass with unmelted steel rods in it. Glass melts at much lower temps than steel."

Which photo? Please post the URL of his statement. Does he think Peter Tully, Mark Loizeaux and all the others who said there was molten steel are idiots?

As others have mentioned the photo was taken on 9/27/01. There's also another photo taken of glowing debris from the same date.
Steven Jones himself puts the temps at (approx. 1550 - 1900 F, 845 - 1040 C.). Your going to get a lot of different temp. estimates.

Steven Jones was using a chart similar to the one on the left and being very conservative. 1550 is still well above the melting point of aluminum. [The blacksmith chart is on the right]

 

[Athyrio]

My entire PM which was in response to 2 unsolicited PMs.

That was your response to my first PM. You never responded to the second.

The money? It was and still is unaccounted for.

Here's what you originally said about it:

Remember Rumsfeld announcing that 2.3 trillion dollars was unaccounted for on September 10, 2001?


Kind of amazing how the pentagon hit conveniently struck the location of the accounting records that showed all those unaccountable trillions of missing dollars that Rumsfeld referenced on 9/10?

Was there an investigation?

Nope.

Could the media's silence be any more defining/deafening?

It was not only pointed out to you that not only had this so-called "missing" money been discussed in the media previous to 9/10/2001, that Rumsfeld himself had discussed it several times prior to that date and that an investigation had been done and made some accomplishments despite your repeating the lie that there had not been any.

You are incapable of seeing how ridiculous the claim is that Rumsfeld brought this up (again) the day before 9/11 "knowing" that his inside job would take care of the matter for good the next day. Why would he have needed to announce it to the public?

This is why I laugh at anyone pushing this particular bit of nonsense. It reminds me of the old "what were they hiding under the blue tarp" mystery. You got clearly beaten on that one by merely making the claim. By not admitting it, you will continue to deceive yourself.

 

[Kent1]

What part of "dispersed" don't you understand? Justin had the best explanation for concentrations if aluminum but, as I said before, the folks here will NEVER concede a point. They will think up alternatives but NEVER admit that there what Peter Tully, Mark Loizeaux and all the others said was was molten steel could even possibly be molten steel.

Molten aluminum is silvery in daylight. Do you think Peter Tully, Mark Loizeaux and all the others are idiots?

Which photo? Please post the URL of his statement. Does he think Peter Tully, Mark Loizeaux and all the others who said there was molten steel are idiots?

Steven Jones was using a chart similar to the one on the left and being very conservative. 1550 is still well above the melting point of aluminum. [The blacksmith chart is on the right]

[qimg]http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7309/chartcompare.jpg[/qimg]

I don't understand any part of the "dispersed" claim.
Also why would they still see molten steel on 9/27/01 if thermite was to blame many days later?
I've interviewed and spoken to MANY people regarding the molten steel claims over the years.
Some of the claims are discussed at Mike's website.
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html

Alan Pense's statement is from "Debunking 9/11 Myths" page 41

They aren't stupid, its just not that easy.

Oxidized aluminum/glass/lead all have a higher emissivity above pure aluminum.

I do agree. A lot of people here on both sides have a hard time admiting they are wrong.

 

[TheRedWorm]

...<Snip nonsense>[/qimg]

If I'm not mistaken, I once gave you a picture of something very hot and asked you to identify it..........you could not. Why should anyone believe you now?

 

[Animal]

By the time it was sufficiently uncovered to be 'picked up' it would no longer be molten !

Funny how that "Molten" steel maintained its square shape and edges.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

one visual queue to rule it out as 4500oMelted steel; the amount of light emitted by something that freaken' hot would cause any automatic settings in a camera to set an exposure value as fast as possible to account for it, meaning everything in the surroundings would be blacked out.

I'm willing to give some credence to whatever that is being "hot" as with a night time exposure setting you could make a faint glow look really bright, but that ain't 4500oF. It's as if C7 et al have never worked with a camera in their lives.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Yawn.

In 1969 the US, using computers thousands of times less powerful than today's average PC, man landed on the moon and safely made it back.

Today's powerful computers and state of the art software allow unlimited permutations to be programmed.


Yet
Yet
Yet no to scale computer model of any of the WTC buildings has been programmed to enable a logical replication/simulation of their alleged COLLAPSE.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I just saw this at SLC. It appears Sibel Edmonds is an anti-Semite. http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/201...inant-of-us-presidential-elections/#more-3346

and goes on to state that the media is controlled by Jews.

I like this comment at SLC:

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=27396589&postID=5935125876371018072

If Jewish people admit they control Hollywood why is it antisemitic to say the control the media?

 

[beachnut]

If Jewish people admit they control Hollywood why is it antisemitic to say the control the media?

Is this fair? or funny?

Dr. David Duke may be a scumbag and an anti-Semite; however, Dr. David Duke is smart enough to reject 9/11 conspiracy theories.

Thus, we can see that troofers are lower on the food chain than Dr. David Duke.

Are many truthers holocaust deniers?

 

[beachnut]

In 1969 the US, using computers thousands of times less powerful than today's average PC, man landed on the moon and safely made it back.

Today's powerful computers and state of the art software allow unlimited permutations to be programmed.


Yet
Yet
Yet no to scale computer model of any of the WTC buildings has been programmed to enable a logical replication/simulation of their alleged COLLAPSE.

You have no idea how much effort it takes to model the WTC, yet a simple model can be done on a napkin, and you would not comprehend the result. The results are in, some more complex than others, and you failed to find them and most likely will not understand them.

Computers don't model anything, people make the models. I have a model, and others have models, all of the rational work supports a gravity collapse, and you don't understand them. Guess you are not an engineer, which would help, but any lay person can understand the gravity collapse, save those in 911 truth?

911 truth arrived on 911, stillborn, the beginning and end all in one day. Failure confirms the fact 911 truth never made it past lies, hearsay, and failed opinions. Your efforts continue in the failure mode.