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Split Thread Conservative Voices (Split from Muller Investigation)

What do you want him to do, that is in his power to do, that he has not said he will do?

Single payer would be first on my list and I think he is a proponent of the idea (but cannot do it with the current legislature). Still, he should push it.
What about you? What is first on the list?


I don't want him to do the things he has done. I don't think huge tax cuts and massive deficits are beneficial.

But Trump himself said he would replace the ACA with something better. Did he even propose anything at all? And since you say that Trump supports single payer, why doesn't he say so? I've never heard him say that.

Trump said he would be the infrastructure President and yet the only project I've seen Trump support is a wall that doesn't help anyone. Where are the proposals for the Second Avenue Subway or a new Hudson River Tunnel that is desperately needed? There are thousands of bridges that are crumbling. What is he doing about that? How is Trump helping anyone increase their wages? Why did he freeze pay for Federal Workers? How many new coal miner jobs were created?

Please tell me how Trump's policies will help ordinary working class Americans. Im dying to know.
 
The main advantage I saw was the move left on social issues. If Hillary had won, you'd have the house and senate still talking 'bible law' crap about marriage and gays and 'traditional values'. The longer he is there, the more trouble they have moving back to marketing that narrative. It's a huge leapfrog away from evangelical thinking. Trump isn't one to quote a bible verse!

And it should tell you something that the evangelicals didn't care at all. And now, they're eagerly pushing back LGBT rights, voting rights for nonwhite people, and packing the courts with young rightwing ideologies that will toss out any universal health care proposal. Better hope either they change, or that dems pack the courts, because otherwise you'll see the same increasingly expensive and wasteful system for a few decades. They haven't budged an inch - if anything, they've run full tilt as far right as they can.

They also have more trouble making their 'deals' with lobbyists and donors. As inexperienced as Trump is in policy, he doesn't give a crap about that or protecting those people. His focus is on trade and always has been for 30 years. Employment. GDP. Numbers. Winning. That is all he really cares about. He isn't well versed in anything else. He isn't good at anything else!
But....he is useful.

No, Dolt 45 has not concerned himself with "trade". He's concerned himself with trying to get into the Manhattan elite set, and with making as much money as possible via ripping off those he considers "beneath" him. He is, in reality, a failed real estate developer who is now a reality show star, and a mobbed-up con artist.

And I say that as a person who has spent plenty of time in NYC, and grew up nearby. THe guy's only president in order to erase "that ****** Obama", because white supremacism is an easy idea that the dullard can actually comprehend - and it easily feeds into his malignant narcissism, as well.

You think he is racist and inciting hatred? Tell me what you see when you walk out your front door and go about your day. More Chaos? Terror? Hatred? Intolerance? I don't.

I've definitely seen more hatred and intolerance now, yes.

There were more race riots under Obama. In fact, have there been any big ones this year? Are they coming? I keep hearing bad things are coming. Bad things don't materialize. It's been 2 years of scare tactics. Everyone seems to be doing ok... in real life. If I didn't watch or read the news I'd think things were going very well! In the media, it's Armageddon. They need to stop crying wolf at every turn. I am desensitized.

And in those 2 years, we've seen a marked increase in hate crimes, an increase in actual race riots (which were always rare, and let's not confuse "race riot" with "police attacking communities to start a riot", which is what we saw in Ferguson and Baltimore, among other areas) and much stronger efforts to discriminate on the basis of sex, race, religion, and sexual orientation.

When he and his bigly ideas are gone, someone can come in and do the big national kumbaya for anyone offended with his crass tactics... and that is a valid point. He isn't an empath for sure.

Sorry, this has set any such effort back by several decades. And when I say that, I mean we're literally back to the Supreme Court using Jim Crow "Well, it doesn't *say* that the intention is to discriminate in the order" arguments to allow plainly bigoted actions - such as the Muslim travel ban.

(also, think the same people who caused the Charelottesville riot aren't prepared to cause more violence if Dolt 45 ever gets impeached or removed? Violence to advance white supremacism is, paradoxically, exactly what they do)

*the* good part, and it's not much of one, is that quite a few of the goofballs who sat around saying "Oh, he's just saying all that awful stuff to attract voters, he won't do any of it" are mostly recoiling in horror to discover that he's trying to do all that ugly stuff he says, and are gearing up to run for office. We'll see if they what they can do to counteract the ugliness coming out of DC these days.
 
Quite a few of the goofballs who sat around saying "Oh, he's just saying all that awful stuff to attract voters, he won't do any of it" are mostly recoiling in horror to discover that he's trying to do all that ugly stuff he says.


Recoiling?

Amazing! Two mile long line for Trump Rally in Springfield, Missouri!

The line of Trump supporters attending the President’s rally in Springfield, Missouri, is two miles long according to a report from police and a local reporter.

President Trump is scheduled to speak around 6:30 p.m. CDT at the JQH Arena located on the campus of Missouri State University.

Reports state supporters started lining up early in the morning with one claiming to have been in line since Thursday night. Other reports state upwards of 20,000 people were in line for the 11,000 capacity venue.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...line-for-trump-rally-in-springfield-missouri/ (Sept 21, 2018)
 
I wish we could have open borders, but I think we are a long way from that now. There is far too much inequity for that to be something that would work particularly on our Southern border. If you have ever been to Europe, you can easily travel throughout Europe without ever stopping at a guarded border crossing.

Whether you want them or not, it's a lose-lose campaign message. And if the Democrats don't get it that you can't win on your politics unless you craft winning campaign messages, we're not going to get anywhere in Nov.
 
Conservative voices said they had a better idea for the ACA. We know they never did. Why did conservatives accept that lie?

Economy is going very well. Sure when you give an economic stimulus we didn't need in the way of tax cuts. What happened to that promised investment in infrastructure? Are any conservatives talking about the deficit and that the money would have been better spent on infrastructure than on a tax cut?

Trump thinks he can just print money. Is inflation no longer a conservative tenet? Didn't they vote Carter out because of the uncontrolled inflation?

Anything else conservatives what to discuss except abortion, guns, and the new Christian government they desire?
 
I believe Conservatives these days are especially bad at seeing the divide between what their politicians are saying and what they are doing.

Nowhere is this more obvious than with Trump.
 
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Whether you want them or not, it's a lose-lose campaign message. And if the Democrats don't get it that you can't win on your politics unless you craft winning campaign messages, we're not going to get anywhere in Nov.

I don't disagree with that. But what I find unfortunate is the absence of intellectual discussion because the mere mentioning of something very reasonable is blown out of proportion. I want open borders and open markets, but no way do I think that could work on our Southern border at this moment in time. I do think we could make it work on the Canadian border. A border that I have crossed at least 300 times.
 
Sadly Keith Ellison has taken that literal position. He had a tee shirt on with the message "... no borders".

I think he picked up a lot of Bernie Democrats but when I saw that I considered him fringe.

I seriously doubt he's actually taken that position in a "will co-sponsor a bill to that end" sort of way, but I bet you're right, that he's (dishonestly, I'd argue) trying to bring the very young, Sanders-supporting fringy left-anarchist types into the Democratic Party fold proper, probably greatly misunderstanding the #abolishICE advocates he's trying to pander to.

Ellison wears a lot of hats depending on what he sees at the current political climate. He was (still is?) the leader of the Congressional Progressive Caucus back in 2008, who would strongly support single payer one day, then he signed the public option pledge when reconciliation absolutely could have been used to get it though, but was back to acting like single payer was preposterous shortly thereafter.

ETA: have you ever heard people on the left border of the Democratic Party complain about "fauxgressives"? Ellision is pretty much the quintessential example of that.
 
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I don't disagree with that. But what I find unfortunate is the absence of intellectual discussion because the mere mentioning of something very reasonable is blown out of proportion. I want open borders and open markets, but no way do I think that could work on our Southern border at this moment in time. I do think we could make it work on the Canadian border. A border that I have crossed at least 300 times.

Don't mind me, I'm obsessed with the campaign mistakes Democrats are still making.
 
I seriously doubt he's actually taken that position in a "will co-sponsor a bill to that end" sort of way, but I bet you're right, that he's (dishonestly, I'd argue) trying to bring the very young, Sanders-supporting fringy left-anarchist types into the Democratic Party fold proper, probably greatly misunderstanding the #abolishICE advocates he's trying to pander to.

Ellison wears a lot of hats depending on what he sees at the current political climate. He was (still is?) the leader of the Congressional Progressive Caucus back in 2008, who would strongly support single payer one day, then he signed the public option pledge when reconciliation absolutely could have been used to get it though, but was back to acting like single payer was preposterous shortly thereafter.
Getting way ahead of his skis talking about bills he might sponsor. He has to get re-elected first and win majorities in Congress.

Look how the conservatives spin that: Rare Democrat honesty: Keith Ellison’s T-shirt boasts, ‘I don’t believe in borders’

How is that going to win elections?

I said it when Bernie was running and I'll say it again: It sounds good, but what good is it if it won't win elections? Think smaller steps and we'll have a chance to get there. The American population has been bombarded with negative propaganda about socialism for decades.

It matters how one frames these issues.
 
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I wish we could have open borders, but I think we are a long way from that now. There is far too much inequity for that to be something that would work particularly on our Southern border. If you have ever been to Europe, you can easily travel throughout Europe without ever stopping at a guarded border crossing.

Sorry for going on and on about this, but I swear to god, Keith Ellison does not actually "disbelieve in borders". He apparently just knew of some immigrant-supporting "activism" event, and either he (or more likely his staffers) came up with the bad idea of him going there wearing that shirt as a photo-op thing to add to his public image as "cool/down with" the protesty activisty types.

I was really stupid, and that's a perfect example of why there's no rumblings of a "Ellison for POTUS 2020" campaign in the works. "The left" does not trust him for these sorts of reasons.
 
If we coupled the Free Flow of Money to the Free Flow of Labor, Republican donors would push for open borders tomorrow.
 
Getting way ahead of his skis talking about bills he might sponsor. He has to get re-elected first and win majorities in Congress.

Look how the conservatives spin that: Rare Democrat honesty: Keith Ellison’s T-shirt boasts, ‘I don’t believe in borders’

How is that going to win elections?

I said it when Bernie was running and I'll say it again: It sounds good, but what good is it if it won't win elections? Think smaller steps and we'll have a chance to get there. The American population has been bombarded with negative propaganda about socialism for decades.

It matters how one frames these issues.

It (that dumbass tshirt) was a very stupid AND "inauthentic" thing for him to do. "The left" wants a stronger safety net, a couple of more universal rights of citizenship, and less inequality over all, and open borders are not compatible with those objectives at all.

When it comes to open borders, it doesn't even sound good (unless you're looking very optimistically 100 years down the road at a post scarcity world or whatever), nevermind winning election now. It would be a devastatingly bad policy.

Wearing shirts promoting open borders should be left to the Rand Paul's and Justin Amash's of the elected political world. That's their thing, not ours.
 
If we coupled the Free Flow of Money to the Free Flow of Labor, Republican donors would push for open borders tomorrow.

That's actually been they objective since forever. They just hide it in their kind of wonky economics papers/articles on sites like Mises and CATO. But that's part of their libertopian goal.
 
That's actually been they objective since forever. They just hide it in their kind of wonky economics papers/articles on sites like Mises and CATO. But that's part of their libertopian goal.

The only True Libertarians are Preppers - all the others are armchair Libertarians who want the advantages but none of the drawbacks.
In particular, they want to be able to move to other countries and set up shop there, but they have no interest in letting other countries compete with them on their home turf.
 
The only True Libertarians are Preppers - all the others are armchair Libertarians who want the advantages but none of the drawbacks.
In particular, they want to be able to move to other countries and set up shop there, but they have no interest in letting other countries compete with them on their home turf.

A lot of the "richer than god" libertarian types are moving towards this, too:

http://exiledonline.com/escape-from...-behind-the-libertarian-inspired-sea-castles/
 
The only True Libertarians are Preppers - all the others are armchair Libertarians who want the advantages but none of the drawbacks.
In particular, they want to be able to move to other countries and set up shop there, but they have no interest in letting other countries compete with them on their home turf.

Are they the only true Scotsmen also?
 

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