• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Split Thread Conservative Voices (Split from Muller Investigation)

Upchurch said:
Nothing works as well as the free market to do what?


eta: To expand a little, I think a government solely dedicated to, and centered around, capitalism is just as bad as a government solely dedicated to, and centered around socialism. A capitalist approach is better for handling some things. A socialist approach is better for handling other things. I don't want my first responders to be a capitalist system, for example. There is probably an optimum mix of the two, but I won't claim to know exactly what that mix is.
Click to expand...

That's the problem. I'd have to write a dissertation to expand properly. Prices being set by supply and demand not government fiat are best. But that is assuming the participants are informed and can act freely. The failures of market economics occur when there are monopolies or where participants are not informed and can't act freely without coercion.

Healthcare for example is an area where the majority of consumers are poorly informed and they will never be adequately equipped to make decisions.

But I've seen how efficiently markets can operate. I have a friend of mine who is sort of a protectionist liberal. He likes much of what Trump is doing with the tariffs. He complains when he reads about companies that buy overseas to get lower prices. But that doesn't stop him from shopping for the best prices on the items he shops for.

The simple reality is right out of Adam Smith with each of us working in our own best interest. This is both true and short sighted. John Nash's approach was better. That is to do what is best for ourselves and the group.

I'm in favor of tweaks to capitalist economics that make it fairer and more efficient. Pure laissez faire capitalism works better than ANYTHING...
for about a day. It burns hot and then burns itself out. It inevitably leads to a concentration of wealth and its own version of a command economy.
 
Belz... said:
Well, I certainly didn't suggest otherwise. I was refering to a system limiting poverty and encouraging a middle class, not one that enforced them.
Click to expand...

Depending on how you define it “enforcing” a middle class should be impossible. I mean you will always get a top 20% and bottom 20% of income/wealth. What you need to be avoided is families being trapped there generation after generation.

What I find most scary and offensive is the number of people right who believe people are not trapped there and end up staying there not because there is something wrong with how the economy is structured but because they are somehow “intellectually inferior” and therefor not capable of moving out of that bottom 20%. The corollary to this is that because things are “already fair” any attempt to help this situation is “redistribution” “socialism”, etc.
 
River said:
I'm curious to hear some of the posters reading this opinions on Tom Fitton from Judicial Watch. Do you like what Judicial Watch does?
Click to expand...

I think they're hit and miss, and a lot more miss than hit. I won't, like, not read a FOIA document just because it came from them, tho.
 
Belz... said:
And there's good reason for that, as well. A healthy middle class and reduced poor class is awesome for the economy.
Click to expand...

I always love how Republicans push that supply side economics voodoo. Especially when Demand economics is significantly more productive. Businesses don't hire more people or increase wages simply because they have more money. Anyone who says that are idiots or they're selling something.

No, they invest in their businesses when they see business opportunities. What better way to increase business opportunities than to increase demand?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Have you ever heard of a defense contractor losing money?
Click to expand...

I don’t follow them enough to answer that definitely. I know that purely private sector enterprises often have huge cost over-runs also, yet still thrive.

Sure, the government can’t just declare bankruptcy or dissolve its charter to avoid payment on a contract. I’m also not asserting that public-sector contracts aren’t subject to grafting, grifting, and gouging; only that they are operating on the same grounds in a market economy as two private sector companies engaged in the same activity.
 
lomiller said:
Depending on how you define it “enforcing” a middle class should be impossible. I mean you will always get a top 20% and bottom 20% of income/wealth. What you need to be avoided is families being trapped there generation after generation.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

What I find most scary and offensive is the number of people right who believe people are not trapped there and end up staying there not because there is something wrong with how the economy is structured but because they are somehow “intellectually inferior” and therefor not capable of moving out of that bottom 20%.
Click to expand...

I'd think both reasons can be true, depending on the case.

acbytesla said:
I always love how Republicans push that supply side economics voodoo. Especially when Demand economics is significantly more productive. Businesses don't hire more people or increase wages simply because they have more money. Anyone who says that are idiots or they're selling something.

No, they invest in their businesses when they see business opportunities. What better way to increase business opportunities than to increase demand?
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
River said:
I suspected this may be a silly exercise in civility, but I'm curious what many here seem to think of other "conservative" voices out there. Examples like Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, Larry Elder, Ben Carson, Clarance Thomas, Rand Paul, Trey Gowdy, Condoleezza Rice? This forum seems to be very left leaning. I remember it being more about critical thinking in the past.
Click to expand...

Stefan Molyneaux. Freedomain Radio. Get sum. I have half-breed kids with a beautiful brown mom. That's why I listen to this Nazi white supremacist. (pre-empting Godwin's Law)

To your point about left-leaning:

It is more than that, and I think Chomsky's work is really important here. Chomsky taught us to see that the Media, government, and international capital keep the debate within a narrow band of irrelevant differences.

I've never seen it this bad with every issue now wrapped into one giant Trump vs. not Trump false dichotomy.

I'm an independent, non-partisan, the largest single block of voters. It is as if we don't exist, and this relentless attempt to label people as Trump or anti-Trump is offensive to reason for an independent.

If you look carefully you will see that it is the anti-war "left" and anti-war "right" that have been excised from the debate. We all agree on perpetual war now. Trump too, obviously. I don't buy this ******** about 3D chess, he is following the Neocon war machine everywhere you look. Project for a New American Century Deja Vu all over again.

Anyway, I ran into Molyneaux on peaceful parenting originally and found he has some great material on feminism, immigration, IQ, and wow what a difference with this forum. You can go a whole program without an ad-hom. Whereas that's about all the political page is here now, mostly a bunch of vapid virtue-signalling about how much you hate Trump.
 
AlaskaBushPilot said:
I've never seen it this bad with every issue now wrapped into one giant Trump vs. not Trump false dichotomy.

I'm an independent, non-partisan, the largest single block of voters. It is as if we don't exist, and this relentless attempt to label people as Trump or anti-Trump is offensive to reason for an independent.

If you look carefully you will see that it is the anti-war "left" and anti-war "right" that have been excised from the debate. We all agree on perpetual war now. Trump too, obviously. I don't buy this ******** about 3D chess, he is following the Neocon war machine everywhere you look. Project for a New American Century Deja Vu all over again.
Click to expand...
I don't label everyone as pro or anti Trump. They do that themselves.

Frankly, I don't think there are actually very many people that think highly of Trump. No I think even most of his supporters see him as the narcissistic POS that he has demonstrated himself over and over to be.

They simply see him as a means to their end. For example, evangelical Christians KNOW that Trump isn't one of them, but he is in their mind helping their cause with the appointment of conservative judges.

People who simply have an irrational hate of government or an affinity for conspiracy theories may be the only people that might feel any kinship with Trump.
 
Last edited:
Mumbles said:
...ETA:, I'd also like to express my amusement at the idea of Cali as some singularly important spot for of black American political expression...
Click to expand...

Tbf, It's kind of a "thing" with most Southern Californians to think that they're the center of the Universe wrt ... well, anything you'd care to talk about, really.
 
Belz... said:
This.

Ah, the good old pious fraud. A staple of the Christian faith.
Click to expand...

Seriously, how many people think that Trump is actually a sincere Christian? I mean it teaches love thy neighbor as thyself. Trump doesn't love anything as much as himself. .
 
acbytesla said:
Seriously, how many people think that Trump is actually a sincere Christian? I mean it teaches love thy neighbor as thyself. Trump doesn't love anything as much as himself. .
Click to expand...

Bible says a lot of things, many of which contradict other things.

"X is acting / not acting like a Christian" is an amazingly meaningless statement.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Bible says a lot of things, many of which contradict other things.

"X is acting / not acting like a Christian" is an amazingly meaningless statement.
Click to expand...

No it is not. People can argue a great many things about Christianity, but I have never known a Christian who wouldn't say that the core message of Christian ideology is love and grace for all. We are to love our neighbors and our enemies. That doesn't mean we shouldn't kill them in his service however. But Trump does have one thing in common with Jesus in that they both spent a fair share of their time in the company of prostitutes.
 
acbytesla said:
No it is not. People can argue a great many things about Christianity, but I have never known a Christian who wouldn't say that the core message of Christian ideology is love and grace for all. We are to love our neighbors and our enemies. That doesn't mean we shouldn't kill them in his service however. But Trump does have one thing in common with Jesus in that they both spent a fair share of their time in the company of prostitutes.
Click to expand...

I've known a lot of Christians (Southern Baptist types) who would say the core message of Christian ideology is just "Accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, and the Bible is the inerrant word of God". No real ideology besides that.
 
uke2se said:
Excuse me, but are you claiming that because there are some minority conservative voters that the GOP doesn't have a racist issue? I mean, that's pretty stupid if that's what you're saying.
Click to expand...
I am telling it like it is from this location. Where I am. That's all. Do you think there is some grand national messaging they all have to follow to a 'tee'?. It's local. Race relations divisions (of citizens) don't play well down here because they are outdated for the most part. I think Asians are the next target here...not whites.
Whites are a minority. Half of the kids in my daughters class are mixed race (including mine!). I just hate how people assume 'America' is one big culture. I didn't realize how racist people could be until I moved to Baltimore for 5 years. It is soo sooo very different on that side of the country!

This is my own very anecdotal opinion so take it with your preferred sized grain of salt.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom