Christian Salvation Is Heinously Unjust

[Pup]

Belief, as defined by Jesus is an action thing which changes your behaviour.
Belief could be, I know I an an ok person but I want to be better than that and my goal is to be a good person because that is what would be the best for the future of humanity. Jesus would look at that and say, I can get behind that. So he sends a prophecy to that person of what things to follow to work towards his goal.

But with the bolded part, we're back to intentions, rather than actions. Let's take a hypothetical example of a pedophile, something most everyone will agree is "bad" if acted upon, but something that some people justify to themselves as "not bad."

So we have one pedophile who genuinely believes he's being loving and caring toward children, doesn't cause them any physical harm, just enjoys mutual petting, and thinks he's doing no moral wrong. He's not trying to improve, and Jesus has therefore failed to send him any revelation, so he's going to hell. Fair enough.

We have another who can't stop the urges but has come to realize that it's wrong to act on them, so he's trying to change. Presumably, Jesus is helping him improve. He used to molest dozens of kids a year. Now he only molests one a month. He's going to heaven, molesting kids all along, as long as he molests fewer each year, because he's working toward his goal.

Then we have another, who's always felt urges toward children, but has always known it's wrong and through great self control has never acted on those urges and never touched a child.

Ironically, he's no better than the previous fellow and will go to heaven too.

Yet surely someone who has never molested a child despite having urges to do so, has left the world a better place than the fellow who molested a lot of kids in the past and is still occasionally doing it.

 

[tsig]

I suppose you mean me, holding just parts while flying in the face of convention. What do you think of the people who tell you that you need to learn to pronounce Aramaic, otherwise you can not access Christ, since the name Jesus comes from the Latin and was not what he was called by in his home country? Do you think they are right? Say the name just right, and then you can be saved? That would go along that same line of thinking.
Did you read the article I suggested reading on the different forms of the Christian definitions of salvation? There is a dominant religion going under the banner of Christianity, but there are many others. Do we have to belong to that one?
The name, what is it? In these ancient cultures, it meant not just a line on the census form but the character of the person. If only in the name of Christ can one be saved, that may just mean, only by this character of Christ will one be saved, as in having your own character in compliance with the quality of Christ's.

What happened to those who died before Christ was born?

 

[hgc]

Kind of fuzzy explanation on my part.
If someone believes in a good god, then it is easy enough to attribute any good thing to that god.
With people accessing what is good and setting aside that which is bad, then life can be good. If you had evil people taking over the government and doing things for purely selfish reasons, then they can make life miserable for everyone else.
Being ethical would make the believers think of that person, apparently doing good things, as being godly.

If this was intended to be less fuzzy, then you're heading in the wrong direction.

 

[Ethnikos]

If this was intended to be less fuzzy, then you're heading in the wrong direction.

Just wanted to say more than, That's cool!

 

[Ethnikos]

*snip*
But I don't think I'm wrong in saying that redemption through Christ is a central tenant of Christianity. Hence the name.
*snip*

The word Christian was a derogatory term used by people outside the belief, that stuck.
The term they used in the Book of Acts to describe their religion was, The Way (way to salvation, way of life?).

 

[Ethnikos]

*snip*
. . .we're back to intentions, rather than actions. .
*snip*

Not sure how this goes with what I was saying. I was trying to answer how someone would know what to do or rules he must follow.
You seem to be going back to the question of which one goes to heaven.
I'm conventional Christian as to believing the Holy Spirit convicts the soul of being wrong. A rebellious person will fight that or suppress the thought and it has no effect. Another will take that conviction to heart and want to do something to fix the problem. The one following those promptings is the one who will end up with a life more suitable for presentation in judgement.

 

[Ethnikos]

What happened to those who died before Christ was born?

That is a bit mysterious and probably not adequately explained in the Bible. A touchy subject with some people. I try to not be hateful to people who I disagree with on the possible solutions. I tend to go with what I think is the simplest solution, which is that there is a sliding scale where consideration is taken for the times the person lived in.
I don't have a perfect and objective way of judging people and have personally liked to think that most all people would be capable of reform. I would not know how that would work exactly. I have had it put into me rather effectively (by religious instruction of one form or another) that the world as we know it will not go on forever, and there will be a clear division between the good and the bad, including people. That is something necessary to bring about an end, in order to bring in something better. The something better is a world where the people who would ruin it and make it right back into what was before, will not be there.
If there is a spark or something which holds the who we are, it will go through something (this is my personal speculation) and will get fixed somehow and maybe have a chance to start all over. If there is no such thing as this spark, nothing really matters because it is all over for everyone.
Edit to add: here is something on a post on another forum dealing with such questions I just saw and copied.
You got to go through hell before you get to heaven.......Steve Miller

 

[Pup]

Not sure how this goes with what I was saying. I was trying to answer how someone would know what to do or rules he must follow.
You seem to be going back to the question of which one goes to heaven.

Yes, sort of, because it's all connected: you have to know what rules to follow, in order to follow the right ones to get into heaven, if there's a judgment and a heaven and hell.

I'm conventional Christian as to believing the Holy Spirit convicts the soul of being wrong. A rebellious person will fight that or suppress the thought and it has no effect. Another will take that conviction to heart and want to do something to fix the problem. The one following those promptings is the one who will end up with a life more suitable for presentation in judgement.

So then they're judged on what they actually do, and not on their intentions?

Still, it seems arbitrary, because there are a lot of choices where I don't think people pick a side, knowing it's wrong but refusing to listen to the Holy Spirit. They genuinely believe they've picked the right side. I'm think of topics like gay rights, the amount one should give to charity, eating meat, abortion, capital punishment...

For example, I think most people genuinely believe that eating meat is okay for reasons like we're born as omnivores and it says right there in the Bible that it is, or that eating meat is wrong because it's unnecessary and exploits living creatures. Neither side is ignoring any prompting; they genuinely believe they're right. It's not like, for example, smoking, where a lot of people will say, "I really should quit, but..."

Many religions solve this by having a guide-book or tradition that will guarantee you're saved. It's solved for atheists because if you don't believe in a final arbitrary judgment, you don't need to live up to any particular rules, so you just do the best you can.

But with a situation where there are no specific rules but there is a final judgment, it's more complicated.

Either it's based on a person's inner mindset, and one can just tell everyone, "Don't worry, as long as you're trying to be good you'll get into heaven."

Or it's based on actual behavior, but in that case, the Holy Spirit is apparently sending different instructions to different people, who all seem to be trying equally hard to do what's best. Some of them are going to get a nasty surprise when they die. Funny guy, that God.

Personally, I think it's a belief designed to allow the comfortable mindset that "good" on judgment day will be defined as "what I think is good, because everybody knows that's what's good, and even those who disagree actually know it too but just won't admit it."

 

[Ethnikos]

*snip*
Personally, I think it's a belief designed to allow the comfortable mindset that "good" on judgment day will be defined as "what I think is good, because everybody knows that's what's good, and even those who disagree actually know it too but just won't admit it."

We need to continually sift the beliefs to get out of the comfortable.
That's my goal.
And I should add, probably the same goal as everyone else on this forum.

 

[tsig]

That is a bit mysterious and probably not adequately explained in the Bible. A touchy subject with some people. I try to not be hateful to people who I disagree with on the possible solutions. I tend to go with what I think is the simplest solution, which is that there is a sliding scale where consideration is taken for the times the person lived in.
I don't have a perfect and objective way of judging people and have personally liked to think that most all people would be capable of reform. I would not know how that would work exactly. I have had it put into me rather effectively (by religious instruction of one form or another) that the world as we know it will not go on forever, and there will be a clear division between the good and the bad, including people. That is something necessary to bring about an end, in order to bring in something better. The something better is a world where the people who would ruin it and make it right back into what was before, will not be there.
If there is a spark or something which holds the who we are, it will go through something (this is my personal speculation) and will get fixed somehow and maybe have a chance to start all over. If there is no such thing as this spark, nothing really matters because it is all over for everyone.
Edit to add: here is something on a post on another forum dealing with such questions I just saw and copied.
You got to go through hell before you get to heaven.......Steve Miller

How odd that the word of god wouldn't explain god's plan.

 

[Finn McR]

Overly Broad Generalization

There are no gods, all religions are wrong, and christianity is especially wrong.

Shed your superstitions.

Tsk, Tsk. Christianity is not especially wrong. It is mostly wrong in those places where it is mostly in belief. But it is no more wrong than any other magical-thinking belief (like, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoarastrianism, Judaism, Jainism, Sihkism, Scientology, Mormonism, ... you know I could go on for lines and lines). By this I mean the overall magical content or minimum-magical content. There can be isolated bits of philosophy wrapped up in religious doctrine that are at least non-magical if not possibly "true." If there is a good way to meter the "anti-truth" value of various religions, that would be nice. However, we don't have a set base-line on "truth", just a provisional acceptance. How hard the various anti-evidence belief systems... oops, I must have meant "faith-based"... depart from reality is hard to quantify.

 

[Leumas]

[....] But it is no more wrong than any other magical-thinking belief (like, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoarastrianism, Judaism, Jainism, Sihkism, Scientology, Mormonism, ... you know I could go on for lines and lines). [....] If there is a good way to meter the "anti-truth" value of various religions, that would be nice.

May I suggest one method......how about the level of harm it has done to the human race..... I think by that standard, Christianity would be #1 very closely followed by Islam.

But that is my own opinion..... based on the 30 years war, the 100 years war, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Conquistas, the Witch burning, the Sanctification of Slavery, Misogyny, Intolerance, Serfdom etc. etc. Not to mention the burning of Libraries and the burning of Scientists and Free Thinkers.

 

[SezMe]

May I suggest one method......how about the level of harm it has done to the human race.....

Not a good measure. A religion can be painfully wrong yet impose no harm upon society. Conversely, take the Mormons. They're pretty whackadoodle but in the larger scheme of things, do less harm than might otherwise be the case.

 

[Complexity]

Not a good measure. A religion can be painfully wrong yet impose no harm upon society. Conversely, take the Mormons. They're pretty whackadoodle but in the larger scheme of things, do less harm than might otherwise be the case.

Speaking as a thinking gay man, mormons have done a great deal of harm and we would be far far better off without them.

Just because they haven't (yet) done as much harm as catholics doesn't mean they haven't done much harm - catholics had a head start and have a particular talent for evil.

 

[Cainkane1]

A Baptist told me once that a murderer who repented was more likely to get into heaven than his victim.

 

[Wuglife]

The Bible is full of unjust horse hockey, OP. Thankfully, it's bogus, too.

 

[JudeBrando]

The Conclusion
Here we have a situation where a man who committed a most heinous crime in the house of Christ under Christ's gaze to an innocent boy who was entrusted into Christ's care.....forgiven and SAVED in heaven.

Says who?

His VICTIMS are CONDEMNED TO ETERNAL HELL.....

Says who?

The victims are burning for ever while the criminal is saved

Says who?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Says who?

Says who?


Says who?

Zombie thread want BRAINS!

We can see that Jude hasn't read his Bible.

 

[Leumas]

Says who?

Says who?


Says who?

Says Jesus, Paul and Peter

Reference Bible verses (** = stressed)
**Mark 16:16
John 3:18, 10:9
**Acts 13:38-39
Acts 15:11, 16:30-31
Rom 5:1, 5:9-10, 5:16, 9:30-33
**Rom 10:9-13
** 1 Corin 6:9-11
Eph 2:5
1 Pet 3:20-22
**Rom 11:6
Rom 11:11-26
1 Corin 3:10-15
**Eph 2:8-12
**2 Tim 1:9
**Titus 3:5
**1 Pet 3:20-22
**Rom 3:20-24
**Rom 3:28
**Rom 4:25-5:2
Rom 5:8-11
Rom 8:30
**Gal 2:16
**Gal 3:11
**Gal 5:4
Tim 3:10-11

 

[JudeBrando]

Says Jesus, Paul and Peter

Reference Bible verses (** = stressed)
**Mark 16:16
John 3:18, 10:9
**Acts 13:38-39
Acts 15:11, 16:30-31
Rom 5:1, 5:9-10, 5:16, 9:30-33
**Rom 10:9-13
** 1 Corin 6:9-11
Eph 2:5
1 Pet 3:20-22
**Rom 11:6
Rom 11:11-26
1 Corin 3:10-15
**Eph 2:8-12
**2 Tim 1:9
**Titus 3:5
**1 Pet 3:20-22
**Rom 3:20-24
**Rom 3:28
**Rom 4:25-5:2
Rom 5:8-11
Rom 8:30
**Gal 2:16
**Gal 3:11
**Gal 5:4
Tim 3:10-11

I'm not going to read the Bible for you.

You tell me, you quote the verses that make your point.

You show me where Jesus, Paul and Peter pronounce your judgments,

unless you are not telling the truth.