Christian Salvation Is Heinously Unjust

[Leumas]

More proof of falsity of Jesus

Read this report about child abuse systematic cover up by the church in Ireland (it is annoying that I am not allowed to post proper links...just copy and paste it into your browser's URL..... you may need to add ... ht tp://)

start.toshiba.com/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9OERRK00%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1018&_LT=MNEW_LARSDCCL3_UNEWS

Here is a sample of the report if you cannot get it...... only a bit.....

Ireland unveils new report on Catholic child abuse

By SHAWN POGATCHNIK Associated Press The Associated Press

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 7:03 PM EDT


DUBLIN (AP) — A new investigation into the Catholic Church's chronic cover-up of child abuse found Wednesday that a rural diocese and its bishop ignored Irish church rules requiring all suspected molestation cases to be reported to police — and the Vatican encouraged this concealment.

The government, which ordered the probe into 1996-2009 cover-ups in the County Cork diocese of Cloyne, warned that parishes across Ireland could pose a continuing danger to children's welfare today given Cloyne's claims to be following church child-protection policy while actually ignoring it.

Edited by Gaspode: 

Edited to comply with rule 4.

 

[SezMe]

Here's your link, Leumas.

 

[Ethnikos]

That would appear to prove my point. The phrase "benefit of the doubt" does not appear in either the old or the new testaments. It is something you added just to explain why you think that God will judge us by a different standard to that which we use to judge others.

Right, I think.
The Bible is not a list of questions and answers.
It is so many stories which we read and draw conclusions from which in turn requires thinking.

 

[Ethnikos]

Read this report about child abuse systematic cover up by the church in Ireland *snip*......

And how does this relate to the concept of salvation that Christians believe?

 

[psionl0]

Right, I think.
The Bible is not a list of questions and answers.
It is so many stories which we read and draw conclusions from which in turn requires thinking.

So we can't trust the bible to answer any questions but we can trust you to know (at least some of) the answers? I don't think so.

For all I know, you could be Satan trying to turn people away from God by discouraging them from looking for answers in the bible.

 

[Ethnikos]

So we can't trust the bible to answer any questions but we can trust you to know (at least some of) the answers? I don't think so.

For all I know, you could be Satan trying to turn people away from God by discouraging them from looking for answers in the bible.

So, the alternatives are: follow me, or figure it out yourself by reading the Bible?
This thread is about why some people claim to have decided to not believe in the Christian God. I found out about this sort of thing going on, when I was questioned on this forum about my opinion of a particular hypothetical of one person being the ideal man but not worshipping whatever Christians would think of as the minimum amount to gain salvation. Contrasted with this man was a really bad person who before his execution for murder, confessed his sinfulness and acknowledged belief in Jesus, to the chaplain. I was asked which one of these people would go to heaven. I did not give the expected answer and so the subject was dropped and no further reference was ever made to all that, with me.
God would be able to make an accurate prediction of what sort of life that last minute convert would have if the governor all of a sudden granted him a reprieve, while we can not. We do not have that kind of power of discernment that God has. I qualified my answer back then by saying it was hypothetical and my decision had no weight in an actual person's eternal fate.

 

[Pup]

God would be able to make an accurate prediction of what sort of life that last minute convert would have if the governor all of a sudden granted him a reprieve, while we can not. We do not have that kind of power of discernment that God has. I qualified my answer back then by saying it was hypothetical and my decision had no weight in an actual person's eternal fate.

Without referencing that other thread, you're saying that the person's salvation depends on what they would do, hypothetically, if they survived, rather than on what they actually did while living?

I don't see how that makes it any less unjust, since all the "goodness" that a person has actually done receives no credit, unless he believes in Jesus, and any bad that a person has done gets wiped away as long as he believes in Jesus at the end. (edited to add: or believes in God, or whatever he needs to do to achieve salvation in a particular belief system.)

The result is still that people who cause misery to others can be rewarded while people who spread help and happiness may not be rewarded.

I understand why religion is crafted that way. It's easier to get converts if you can always promise anyone salvation, no matter what they've done previously.

I also understand why there are exceptions written in, because people will be unhappy if they're told a favorite friend or relative is going to hell because of some apparently trivial fault, such as not being Christian. They'd rather believe that everyone they want is going to heaven, so there are all kinds of loopholes.

But it seems to be too obviously the tail wagging the dog, since it's an example of doctrine being crafted to please the maximum number of people, with loopholes added to get around sticking points.

 

[Leumas]

Here’s your link, Leumas.

Thanks a lot SezMe ….. that helps …..

And how does this relate to the concept of salvation that Christians believe?

Go back and read the OP…..

For all I know, you could be Satan trying to turn people away from God by discouraging them from looking for answers in the bible.

And EVEN WORSE…..what if the Bible is written by the Devil in the first place………….I mean if the Devil wanted to create a book that would cause strife and division and derision and mislead people from the true intentions of god…… he could not have done any better than writing the Old testament….. and then to complete his dastardly TRICK he would have come down in the form of Jesus and later Mohammad.

So, the alternatives are: follow me, or figure it out yourself by reading the Bible?

What if …..the Bible ITSELF is the work of the Devil?

Consider all the RETARDATION of the human race that the OT, NT and Quran have caused over almost 2/3 the population of Earth and almost 4/5 of its land mass.

Consider the 30 years war, 100 years war, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Muslim Empire, the Russian Empire, the European Empires, the Plagues etc. etc. etc. etc.

This trilogy of books have caused, justified, enticed, inspired, sanctified and perpetuated:

- wars of extermination
- SERFDOM, SLAVERY, RACISM, BIGOTRY, MISOGYNY and DESPOTISM
- the crowned robbers
- the beggarly parasitic swindling holy imposters
- retardation of scientific discovery and REASON
- retardation of human sympathy, empathy and morality
- extirpation of anyone who is different from the normal…..i.e. retardation of human evolution.​

Which is more likely to have written books to cause the above atrocities….. God or the Devil? The answer of course is NEITHER….there is no god or a devil….it was the STUPIDITY of man…… but if you were to choose from the above two options….which is it more likely to be?????

We of course already know the answer given by the Christians…..the Devil is behind all other religions. The Devil was trying to PREEMPTIVELY lead future Christians away from Jesus. They are very sure that any “pagan” religions that have any similarity to Christianity were the Devil Spawn….. but the OT and NT were YHWH (a.k.a. Jesus) made.

Of course the other religions reason the opposite.

Here is an interesting FICTION…… or you may want to call it the Book Of Leumas…..

I can imagine a Job like scenario where God and Satan made a bet. God is never EVER to manifested itself in any form whatsoever to people and at the same time allowed the Devil free reign to deceive humanity in whatever way it saw fit. The bet is that despite all the misleading and waylaying that the devil may devise, humanity will still discover god eventually through REASON.

So the devil goes about manifesting itself as gods throughout history from Baal to Zeus and finally as Moses then Jesus then Mohammad. He wrote all the “sacred” scriptures of all the world and “inspired” the “holy” men/women of all the cultures. All this in the effort to BLIND humanity and PREVENT them from using any SCIENCE or REASON and to thus win the bet with God.

Fortunately the Devil is losing now…… there are too many Atheists and too much REASON….. God is FINALLY winning…..

 

[Ethnikos]

Without referencing that other thread, you're saying that the person's salvation depends on what they would do, hypothetically, if they survived, rather than on what they actually did while living?

The thread was something like, Why Christianity is Better than Other Religions. It was started by Kathy's husband who abandoned it after the second page or so. The thing I am talking about was around page 50.
The scenario in the hypothetical was someone professing belief in Jesus right before being executed, then going to heaven, while the good man who made no such profession would go to hell.
My answer was the murderer would go to Hell and the good person would go to Heaven, based on how he had lived his life. I don't think God Judges us based on one act, but on the course of a life.

 

[Ethnikos]

Go back and read the OP…..
*snip*

So more fuel for the fire.

 

[Ethnikos]

*snip*
The bet is that despite all the misleading and waylaying that the devil may devise, humanity will still discover god eventually through REASON.
*snip*

So what does your reason tell you?
Do good because that is the only way to live that makes sense.
Or, Do bad because who cares about other people.
I would say the second choice is unsustainable and you would end up with a dead planet.

 

[Marduk]

I don't think .

yanno, I hear that a lot from some monotheists, though not in as many words

 

[Pup]

My answer was the murderer would go to Hell and the good person would go to Heaven, based on how he had lived his life. I don't think God Judges us based on one act, but on the course of a life.

Okay, so "good" is rewarded and "bad" is punished, without regard to belief. But that implies that God or some similar supernatural force that's able to judge, still has a definition of "good" and "bad" which people need to follow.

While some people know what they're doing is wrong and do it anyway, most people justify their acts as good, under the circumstances--self defense, for the greater good, just following orders, that kind of thing.

How can we know by what standards god (or whatever) will judge us?

 

[Ethnikos]

*snip*
How can we know by what standards god (or whatever) will judge us?

Belief has an essential part in the whole thing.
Mainly what I am trying to do is counteract people who say, Just believe and being good is secondary and not important to whether you are ultimately saved.
I think those people have a difficulty with differentiating between faith, and belief. Faith is a term Paul redefined to fit his theology and was a form of ownership of things you do not have now in a concrete form.
Belief, as defined by Jesus is an action thing which changes your behaviour.
Belief could be, I know I an an ok person but I want to be better than that and my goal is to be a good person because that is what would be the best for the future of humanity. Jesus would look at that and say, I can get behind that. So he sends a prophecy to that person of what things to follow to work towards his goal. The belief is to be a Christlike person, and not to inflate the ego, but for a broader reason. That would be believing in Jesus, if one is to understand that was what he was about.

 

[hgc]

So what does your reason tell you?
Do good because that is the only way to live that makes sense.
Or, Do bad because who cares about other people.
I would say the second choice is unsustainable and you would end up with a dead planet.

Both options (and a variety of hybrids along a continuum) are in play, in society and in individuals, maybe better expressed as self-interest vs. community-interest. The sustaining of civilized society depends on the community-interest being sufficiently weighted in the balance to keep things from flying apart. This is achieved through explicit force in the legal code and through more subtle means by instruction in morality, which is historically derived through all manner of institutions (incl. religious) and memes.

The absence of this human trait would have kept civilization from forming in the first place.

 

[PGH]

The thread was something like, Why Christianity is Better than Other Religions. It was started by Kathy's husband who abandoned it after the second page or so. The thing I am talking about was around page 50.
The scenario in the hypothetical was someone professing belief in Jesus right before being executed, then going to heaven, while the good man who made no such profession would go to hell.
My answer was the murderer would go to Hell and the good person would go to Heaven, based on how he had lived his life. I don't think God Judges us based on one act, but on the course of a life.

That's a very kind sentiment, and it would be very nice if it were true.

Unfortunately you are contradicted by the rules of every Christian religion that I know of. Salvation is found through God/Jesus only. You can spend every day feeding the poor if you'd like, if you don't worship and praise his name you'll burn for eternity.

I know it doesn't make sense. I know it seems incredibly cruel, arbitrary and vain. That's why I don't believe it. But what I don't do is pretend that very clear and fudamental rule of Christianity does not exist and cling to the parts of the faith I think are kinder and more understanding.

Read the bible or any other holy book. They each claim to be the word of the infallible creator. That's their claim. Either they are or they aren't. If they are you should follow them. If they aren't you should toss them on the nearest fire so they could serve some purpose.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

"Christian Salvation" is yet another Oxymoron, just like "Anecdotal Evidence".

 

[Ethnikos]

That's a very kind sentiment, and it would be very nice if it were true.
Unfortunately you are contradicted by the rules of every Christian religion that I know of. Salvation is found through God/Jesus only. You can spend every day feeding the poor if you'd like, if you don't worship and praise his name you'll burn for eternity.
I know it doesn't make sense. I know it seems incredibly cruel, arbitrary and vain. That's why I don't believe it. But what I don't do is pretend that very clear and fudamental rule of Christianity does not exist and cling to the parts of the faith I think are kinder and more understanding.
*snip*

I suppose you mean me, holding just parts while flying in the face of convention. What do you think of the people who tell you that you need to learn to pronounce Aramaic, otherwise you can not access Christ, since the name Jesus comes from the Latin and was not what he was called by in his home country? Do you think they are right? Say the name just right, and then you can be saved? That would go along that same line of thinking.
Did you read the article I suggested reading on the different forms of the Christian definitions of salvation? There is a dominant religion going under the banner of Christianity, but there are many others. Do we have to belong to that one?
The name, what is it? In these ancient cultures, it meant not just a line on the census form but the character of the person. If only in the name of Christ can one be saved, that may just mean, only by this character of Christ will one be saved, as in having your own character in compliance with the quality of Christ's.

 

[Ethnikos]

*snip*
The absence of this human trait would have kept civilization from forming in the first place.

Kind of fuzzy explanation on my part.
If someone believes in a good god, then it is easy enough to attribute any good thing to that god.
With people accessing what is good and setting aside that which is bad, then life can be good. If you had evil people taking over the government and doing things for purely selfish reasons, then they can make life miserable for everyone else.
Being ethical would make the believers think of that person, apparently doing good things, as being godly.

 

[PGH]

I suppose you mean me, holding just parts while flying in the face of convention. What do you think of the people who tell you that you need to learn to pronounce Aramaic, otherwise you can not access Christ, since the name Jesus comes from the Latin and was not what he was called by in his home country? Do you think they are right? Say the name just right, and then you can be saved? That would go along that same line of thinking.
Did you read the article I suggested reading on the different forms of the Christian definitions of salvation? There is a dominant religion going under the banner of Christianity, but there are many others. Do we have to belong to that one?
The name, what is it? In these ancient cultures, it meant not just a line on the census form but the character of the person. If only in the name of Christ can one be saved, that may just mean, only by this character of Christ will one be saved, as in having your own character in compliance with the quality of Christ's.

Well Ethnikos of course I do not think they are right. I'm an atheist who doubts whether Jesus Christ even existed, much less if the words he's claimed to have said are accurate.

I don't think there's any salvation. I think death = death. So I certainly don't believe the people who think you need to say incantations/chants a certain way.

But I don't think I'm wrong in saying that redemption through Christ is a central tenant of Christianity. Hence the name. Not once in the bible did I see any passage where a good man was rewarded for kind deeds alone, what mattered to god time and time again was that the person was a believer. Non-belief is the one sin that can't be forgiven. Theft, murder, lies, getting your father drunk on wine so you can have sex with him and have his children, all these things were either forgiven or approved of in the first place so long as it was done in the name of god.

You seem to be very nice and your beliefs seem to match. It's quite refreshing honestly. I just have trouble throwing much weight behind them because you're the only source I've ever heard for them. I'm sure you and I are in agreement that the majority of religions just want your behind in a pew and your money in the plate. But if you've found one that's a bit more understanding, rational and reasonable my hat's off to you. It's still not my thing, but I certainly respect you and wish you all the best.