Christian Salvation Is Heinously Unjust

[Ethnikos]

@Leumas
I notice you make no mention of the atrocities of the Jews.

 

[Brainache]

@Leumas
I notice you make no mention of the atrocities of the Jews.

Yes those evil Jews! Stealing all that gas and ammunition from the kind-hearted Nazis...

 

[Leumas]

@Leumas
I notice you make no mention of the atrocities of the Jews.

As a matter of fact I did ....see the highlighted part in the quote below and follow its link

I consider Christianity and Judaism equally retarded, VILE, preposterous and contemptible.

I could I guess have mentioned Gaza and Palestinians...But the subject was Christianity and Paul and why Christians cause mayhem in the name of Christianity.

 

[Leumas]

Jude,

Are you going to reply with anything substantial other than some meaningless puerile video to my request in this post?

Can I presume that your SECOND lack of response on top of the FIRST one is a full acquiescence to the facts (despite Ethnikos' opinion already responded to) and that now you agree that "says who?" are in fact Jesus, Paul and Peter?

Are you now going to take my advice like Dafydd advised you, and read the Bible to actually learn about the book you THINK is the word of God?

 

[dafydd]

Are you now going to take my advice like Dafydd advised you, and read the Bible to actually learn about the book you THINK is the word of God.

He claims to have read it but I have seen no evidence of that.

 

[Leumas]

He claims to have read it but I have seen no evidence of that.

They all THINK they did.

I had numerous discussions with REVERENDS and PRIESTS that turned out to know less than I do about the bible.

I challenged many preachers to tell me the 10 commandments that could not list all 10 (the mistakenly thought to be the ten) and most would be in denial when I point out the 4th generation revenge YHWH promised children due to him being JEALOUS.

Most would be lost for words when I point out the real ten commandments to them and start requesting for other versions of the bible or even the Hebrew original.

And that is the OT. When it came to the NT all of them did not even know (or admit to knowing) that there were hundreds of discrepancies and problems.

Try this one..... how many days passed between Jesus dying and then rising again? I will bet you most would say THREE when in fact it was about a day and a half.

Here is another one.... What did Jesus say as his last words before dying? I bet you most would not know and if they do know ONE VERSION they do not know the others or might have an amalgam made up.

Now...when a lay Christian does not know these things that is normal. But when a CLERGYMAN does not know these things you start to wonder.

Of course forget about all the Atrocities in the Bible or the Absurdities or the Vulgarities and so forth. These they will never acknowledge or accept as even existing.

That is why they have books like this one and of course the whole field of apologetics and casuistry. This book is the most painful I have ever read. It literally caused me pain in my head while I was forcing myself to read it.

 

[dafydd]

They all THINK they did.

I had numerous discussions with REVERENDS and PRIESTS that turned out to know less than I do about the bible.

I challenged many preachers to tell me the 10 commandments that could not list all 10 (the mistakenly thought to be the ten) and most would be in denial when I point out the 4th generation revenge YHWH promised children due to him being JEALOUS.

Most would be lost for words when I point out the real ten commandments to them and start requesting for other versions of the bible or even the Hebrew original.

And that is the OT. When it came to the NT all of them did not even know (or admit to knowing) that there were hundreds of discrepancies and problems.

Try this one..... how many days passed between Jesus dying and then rising again? I will bet you most would say THREE when in fact it was about a day and a half.

Here is another one.... What did Jesus say as his last words before dying? I bet you most would not know and if they do know ONE VERSION they do not know the others or might have an amalgam made up.

Now...when a lay Christian does not know these things that is normal. But when a CLERGYMAN does not know these things you start to wonder.

Of course forget about all the Atrocities in the Bible or the Absurdities or the Vulgarities and so forth. These they will never acknowledge or accept as even existing.

That is why they have books like this one and of course the whole field of apologetics and casuistry. This book is the most painful I have ever read. It literally caused me pain in my head while I was forcing myself to read it.

On the odd occasion when I meet a Christian they never know the answer to those and similar questions. They claim that their religion has a huge effect on their lives but they know almost nothing about it. Very odd.

 

[JudeBrando]

Jude,

Are you going to reply with anything substantial other than some meaningless puerile video to my request in this post?

Can I presume that your SECOND lack of response on top of the FIRST one is a full acquiescence to the facts (despite Ethnikos' opinion already responded to) and that now you agree that "says who?" are in fact Jesus, Paul and Peter?

Are you now going to take my advice like Dafydd advised you, and read the Bible to actually learn about the book you THINK is the word of God?

I do not find your expository preaching persuasive, no matter the obsessive-compulsive stylings inherent to your venom.

Despite your wall of verses, you do not persuade me that the biblical position of "Jesus, Paul and Peter" is that a child molester is assured of God's eternal blessing because he said abracadabra in time and his co-conspirators offer the finest of cover stories. Nor have you persuaded me that God has condemned the entire hearts and lives of those individuals so cavalierly.


Resume presuming...

 

[tsig]

I do not find your expository preaching persuasive, no matter the obsessive-compulsive stylings inherent to your venom.

Despite your wall of verses, you do not persuade me that the biblical position of "Jesus, Paul and Peter" is that a child molester is assured of God's eternal blessing because he said abracadabra in time and his co-conspirators offer the finest of cover stories. Nor have you persuaded me that God has condemned the entire hearts and lives of those individuals so cavalierly.


Resume presuming...

All I have to do is say I love Jesus and I'm home free, right?

 

[Leumas]

I do not find your expository preaching persuasive, no matter the obsessive-compulsive stylings inherent to your venom.

Despite your wall of verses, you do not persuade me that the biblical position of "Jesus, Paul and Peter" is that a child molester is assured of God's eternal blessing because he said abracadabra in time and his co-conspirators offer the finest of cover stories. Nor have you persuaded me that God has condemned the entire hearts and lives of those individuals so cavalierly.


Resume presuming...

sigh.....

..... just pointless and hopeless.

 

[dafydd]

Churches should have a Government Health Warning posted on their doors.

 

[Leumas]

Churches should have a Government Health Warning posted on their doors.

And so should the Bible....

Warning: This book can cause brain atrophy if you hold what is in it as true. If you can read it and not see any of its Atrocities, Absurdities, Contradictions and Vulgarities you should consult a doctor immediately.

 

[Ethnikos]

..But the subject was Christianity and Paul and why Christians cause mayhem in the name of Christianity.

Maybe the subject of one of your tangents, but not of the thread.
You go off on tangents to defame Christianity whenever you can.
The fact is that Christianity has done a lot to uplift society as a whole by making all people equal in the eyes of God, through this concept of salvation, while Judaism has done nothing of the kind, in that it believes in racial superiority (for themselves), while relegating everyone else to a sub-human class.

 

[JudeBrando]

You go off on tangents to defame Christianity whenever you can.

Most obviously true.

...while Judaism has done nothing of the kind, in that it believes in racial superiority (for themselves), while relegating everyone else to a sub-human class.

Not true.

 

[Pup]

The fact is that Christianity has done a lot to uplift society as a whole by making all people equal in the eyes of God, through this concept of salvation, while Judaism has done nothing of the kind, in that it believes in racial superiority (for themselves), while relegating everyone else to a sub-human class.

Speaking from a U.S. perspective, because that's all I really know much about historically, there were many Christian churches who used Biblical doctrine to justify members of the white race holding members of the black race in slavery. For example: Methodist Episcopal South, Southern Baptist, some Presbyterian sects.

I think it's more a matter of people adapting religion to say what they want it to say, but it shows that Christianity, by definition, does not force Christians to give up the idea of racial superiority.

 

[Ethnikos]

. . .Christianity, by definition, does not force Christians to give up the idea of racial superiority.

I don't know how it can force anything, but it does not promote it, while the alternative religion which claims right of ownership of the Christian god, does promote the concept of racial purity and the lower status of some by blood, and eternal curses on some bloodlines, while upholding blessings exclusive to their own.

 

[Pup]

I don't know how it can force anything, but it does not promote it, while the alternative religion which claims right of ownership of the Christian god, does promote the concept of racial purity and the lower status of some by blood, and eternal curses on some bloodlines, while upholding blessings exclusive to their own.

But my point is that some Christian sects do promote it (or have promoted it in the past when it was more socially acceptable). On the other hand, there are Jews who, if they do think all their gentile friends and neighbors are subhuman, certainly hide it well and treat them like everybody else.

It's a chicken-and-egg thing: are some people racist because their religion told them to be, even though it might be against their own conscience otherwise? Or do racist people adapt religions in their own image? Probably a little of both, since religions tend to follow social trends.

This sounds like just a new, complicated way to hate Jews without needing to point out anything they're actually done wrong.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

Some Pertinent Background facts
According to the Christian Catechisms you can only be saved by believing in Christ. (Salvation)

Also, even if you are a sinner so long as you repent and avow that Christ died for your sins and are baptized you will still go to heaven. (Atonement)

Further, an apostate is even worse off than a non-believer....s/he will have an even hotter place in hell, due to the apostasy.

(See below for relevant bible verse references about the above facts)




A TRUE Scenario
A man and his wife who are very devout Christians and love Christ with all their hearts decide to enroll their boy in the church choir and worked hard towards the aim to serve Christ even better and to have their son be blessed in the service of Christ.

They eventually succeed and their little boy is now a member of the choir.

Unfortunately the heinous priest takes a liking to the young boy and after a while of showering him with special attention and favors manages to sequester him into the rectory where he attains his horrendous objective.

The violated boy runs crying to his parents who are utterly dismayed and start praying for Jesus to punish the priest with the same punishment that Christ gave Ananias and his wife (if you are not familiar with this see Acts 4[end] and 5).

Unfortunately NOTHING happens to the priest and even the church with all its FINANCIAL MIGHT fights the parents with ABLE lawyers and manages to squash the parents.

The parents are astonished utterly out of their faith.....they reason that if the bible is true then the priest should have dropped dead for a crime against the holy ghost which surely is much more heinous than withholding some money from Peter...... and since this did not occur then either Jesus is not God or that he only cares about money.

Accordingly the Mother....Father....and boy become APOSTATES.....and the parents DIED in a state of apostasy........where are they going to end up? In hell for ITERNITY......for gazillion years.

The Priest before dying confesses his sins and repents and kisses a rosary and avows his love for Christ......His funeral was a pomp affair and the numerous bishops and other priest gave him fabulous eulogies where they assured the attendants that Heaven for eternity was his final reward.



The Conclusion
Here we have a situation where a man who committed a most heinous crime in the house of Christ under Christ's gaze to an innocent boy who was entrusted into Christ's care.....forgiven and SAVED in heaven.

His VICTIMS are CONDEMNED TO ETERNAL HELL.....

The victims are burning for ever while the criminal is saved

IS THIS DIVINE JUSTICE?

If anything the above proves that, at the very least, Christianity is a heinously WRONG and UNJUST religion.


Reference Bible verses (** = stressed)

**Mark 16:16
John 3:18, 10:9
**Acts 13:38-39
Acts 15:11, 16:30-31
Rom 5:1, 5:9-10, 5:16, 9:30-33
**Rom 10:9-13
** 1 Corin 6:9-11
Eph 2:5
1 Pet 3:20-22
**Rom 11:6
Rom 11:11-26
1 Corin 3:10-15
**Eph 2:8-12
**2 Tim 1:9
**Titus 3:5
**1 Pet 3:20-22
**Rom 3:20-24
**Rom 3:28
**Rom 4:25-5:2
Rom 5:8-11
Rom 8:30
**Gal 2:16
**Gal 3:11
**Gal 5:4
Tim 3:10-11

What you described would of course be insanely unjust. However, I would say that you are describing what happens when people misuse religion and turn it into something ugly. If you look at the words Jesus allegedly said, I highly doubt that he would see such a situation as just. Keep in mind that prior to the Council of Nicea in the 4th century, Christianity was vastly different than it is today- with much dissention and disagreement. Finally, any scripture when taken literally often can lead to such ridiculous occurances...which is why saying that the Catholic Church today has an unjust view of salvation is vastly different than saying that Christianity as a whole does.

 

[Leumas]

What you described would of course be insanely unjust.

Indeed....

However, I would say that you are describing what happens when people misuse religion and turn it into something ugly.

Unfortunately....it is not when it is misused.....rather...it is when it is CORRECTLY used..... look at the commandments (מצוות) of YHWH to kill anyone who does not believe in him or who does not keep the Sabbath or when they are disobedient to their parents. Or how about a girl being forced to marry her rapist after he pays her father some money? Or killing a girl who turns out not to be a virgin on her wedding night unless her parents can show a proof of her hymeneal blood to the elders of the tribe? What about not marrying none Jewish girls?

If you look at the words Jesus allegedly said, I highly doubt that he would see such a situation as just.

Unfortunately you are wrong here....it was from the Bible that the concepts described in the OP were derived.

I already gave an extensive list of biblical verses in the OP.

But if you want to read them easily see this post where they are listed out in full. Read them....also feel free to go to a bible like this one and read them in context.....feel free to discuss afterwards where you find disagreement..... but not with me....go do it to ALMOST ALLLLLL the Christian denominations out there (have a look at the Catholic for example)......the whole point of christianity is built upon slavation by Jesus' human sacrifice and redemption from sins by baptism and acceptance of Jesus as the savior who died for your sins.

Keep in mind that prior to the Council of Nicea in the 4th century, Christianity was vastly different than it is today- with much dissention and disagreement.

The problem with christianity in particular and judaism too and religion in general is precisely what you describe.....Any religion that has SECTS is by definition not a TRUE revelation from any gods.

Any religion that changes its principles is not a TRUE revelation from any IMMUTABLE god.

Have a look at this book to see the BLOODY EXTENT of extirpation and vitiation that Christians have gone to in order to create the Catholic and Orthodox church.

Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 years​

The Christian church started internal squabbles right from day one. Paul's epistles have not had the ink dry on them yet before the churches he created were already quarrelling and disagreeing and having schisms about what entails the real faith. This of course escalated into full killing and wars once certain FACTIONS were given IMPERIAL SANCTIONS.

Finally, any scripture when taken literally often can lead to such ridiculous occurances...which is why saying that the Catholic Church today has an unjust view of salvation is vastly different than saying that Christianity as a whole does.

You are absolutely right.....BUT....how do you know when not to take it literally.....how do you know WHAT to not take literally.....

What you do not take literally might be taken as so by others and vice versa....and therein lies the secret for why there are over 1500 denominations of Christianity and likewise (to much lesser extent) for almost all religions.

Some people in the USA took the part about being allowed to have slaves literally to the extent where nearly a million people were killed in a war to outlaw it by another sector who did not take it literally.

The Church burnt countless women and men and children because they took the part about the witches literally.

The Hebrews committed GENOCIDE on countless Canaanites because they took the Bible literally.

Demonic possession and exorcism are taken very seriously because the part in the Bible where Jesus exorcises demons out of people is taken literally.

So who is to say what is to be taken literally and what is not?

Why is it that Jesus exorcising demons with magic words is to be taken metaphorically and him pretending to be crucified is...or his being the son of god is to be taken literally but hell is not?

Why is it that Israel was created because the Bible was taken literally but the practice of making a woman drink polluted hexed water to test her fidelity is just allegorical?

In reality it all boils down to:

• If this part of the scripture is embarrassing in today's sensibilities
• If this part of the scripture is unenforceable in today's political structure
• If this part is patently moronic given today's knowledge
• If this part is immoral in today's mores and morals
• If the part does not make one feel good about oneself

Then assume that the Bible did not really mean it literally.....which is called CHERRY PICKING in nice terms and HYPOCRISY if you want to be realistic about it.

 

[Fascination]

Evil exists, that part is pretty clear.
There is that problem of evil I found out about on this forum.
My explanation is a god was assigned this planet and maybe not just this planet but any planet people lived on, and he was serving the role of god for anyone meeting a god or wanting to know a god for whatever reason.
At some point the God who created the universe and had theses various gods serving different functions, understood that this god over all people was being corrupted by having such an exalted position and in the absence of a seeable god, this lower god could think of himself as the most high god. This apparent god of the internal affairs of the universe was given warnings from the one actual supreme being to stop it. He refused and just continued on as he had been gradually more and more, headed. The supreme being could not just kill the god of the world without some negative repercussions so he quarantined him to one planet as a type of exile, to prevent a universal infection of his devious nature into all the lesser gods.
This person on this planet would be who we would call today Satan and he saw the writing on the wall that he was going to end up being done away with so instead of repenting decided to take hostages hoping to force God not to kill him. The idea being that if he could get all mankind to defect from God to Satan's camp God would have to relent on the whole death thing, at least for Satan's case, which being Satan was all he really cared about anyway.
During all of this, there was another person who was somehow the son of the Supreme being who cared about the future of all these people and decided to do something about it. He set aside his god attributes and became a human being born in an ordinary sort of way as in vaginal birth from a woman of this world. Somewhere along this road, or maybe all along, there was a spark of awareness in this Son of God that at one time he was something other than a normal person and was for all intents and purposes, God. Not actually being a god at this point but retaining a spiritual link of communication to his Father God, the son was able to maintain an existence on this planet and living in this world without having committed a sin that would have warranted a death penalty.
Satan eyeing the son, Jesus with contempt and envy, wanted to claim him also as a hostage and tempted him by being offered a godhood in his system. being frustrated in these attempts Satan turned his tactic to murder along with his claim to taking possession of his person on account of being a member of this accursed race.

Well, there are some major problems with this explanation and I don't believe it, however I have to give you props...it's much better than,"the lord works in mysterious ways". Or even better,"Who are you to question God's will? You filthy Atheist!".