Can Dimethyltryptamine DMT create Psychic Visions

[roger]

Doing a clinical study isn't illegal, can you folks make this happen?

Sorry, you have to understand this is a forum of people that like Randi and what he does. With very few exceptions, we are not connected in any way with the challenge and have no input. What we have done is helped people understand the challenge and come up with a proposal prior to submitting it to JREF. But nothing we say has any authority.

With all that said, JREF is not in the business of doing science. With very rare exceptions JREF has not participated in any kind of clinical trials. You have to understand, the goal is not to do science, but more to issue a "put up or shut up" challenge. For example, if I claim I can speak to the dead, JREF says "prove it". It doesn't go out and try to conduct studies. The underlying premise is that probably this stuff doesn't exist, after all. You have people publicly saying they can do X or Y, charging hundreds or thousands of dollars to perform, and yet when it comes down to it absolutely cannot prove what they are doing. They are thus charlatans, and need to be called out in this way. It's a worthy cause, but unrelated to your calls for study and science.

I think you are going to find this hard going, and would advise forgetting about the JREF challenge if you don't have very specific and convincing proof of your claims. That doesn't mean leave the forum - the forum doesn't have too much to do with the challenge, after all.

Most people do not believe DMT or other drugs cause ESP. There are sound reasons to think that way. First, we know these drugs alter the mind. Second, we know that they cause completely unreal perceptions. Third, we have no evidence of actual ESP occurring. Forth, and perhaps most importantly, there is no commonality associated with the visions caused by drug quests. Thus it stands to reason that any given claim is the result of distorted perceptions or disassociation (a complete disconnect from your senses), not access to a 'different reality' or whatever.

So, first of all I suggest you consider the extremely strong possibility that you are mistaken. If you are unwilling to do so, don't expect other people, who are not taking the mind addling drugs that you recommend, to spend their money and time researching this. It's an enormous stretch, and the vast majority will want to have nothing to do with it. Not because of fear of the unknown, but because it seems like such a waste of time and a life.

Drugs make you think weird things. If you've ever had an alcoholic in your life you will realize how much distorted thinking goes on, and how they end up accusing you of things you never did, etc. Yes, DMT is not alcohol, but I still suggest you think about that, and look to more plausible explanations for your experiences first.

 

[Irish Murdoch]

Forth, and perhaps most importantly, there is no commonality associated with the visions caused by drug quests.

Hmmm ... actually, from my own extensive experiments conducted (in the name of science you understand) in my teens, I think I'd disagree with the very strong claim that there is no commonality here. That said, in order to account for such uniformity as there is, we don't have to take the silly step of postulating alternative realities. We can instead simply appeal to the uniformity of the human brain.

 

[Akhenaten]

I want to see the Evidence as well! "Can DMT Create psychic visions?", let's do the study and find out together

First you have to produce the evidence, then someone might consider a study.

Have you tried contacting Vision from Feeling? She likes studies.

Cool I did email James, and I could have sworn that I posted it here near the bottom of the forum's 3'rd page, I think it was removed?

Must have been one of those psychic visions. We're off to a good start.

If I offended anyone with it I am very sorry.

For good or ill, your visions so far are yours and yours alone.

But it was written respectively and in good taste and kindness.

How could anyone doubt it.

 

[Naddig74]

.
Someone said James is in Scandinavia hunting Vampires or something....vampires aren't real! he has the coolest Job!

For dogs sake... I said James is in scandinavia giving lectures. You clearly find reading plain english as tricky as writing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdxYT2FlXU8&playnext_from=TL&videos=BaIZp7WgWrU

You are a troll at best, a scammer at worst.

 

[bit_pattern]

In my experience it can...

 

[Naddig74]

In my experience it can...

Details please

 

[dafydd]

Still awaiting James reply to see if in fact "DMT can create Psychic visions."

Sorry No News yet, but James will return and help us answer this question

Who is James?

 

[edona7]

Woddy considers himself to be on a first name basis with James Randi.

 

[Akhenaten]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit smoking.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines

Oh BTW I forgot Can DMT Create Psychic Visions?

Which bit of 'NO' is giving you trouble?

 

[wardenclyffe]

Can chocolate milk create psychic visions? I want to know. Why will no one test this? James, are you there?

Ward

 

[Marduk]

Specifically Graham Hancock.

The idea seems to be that Shamans had real visions of another world and the evidence is they left zig-zag patterns in rock carvings. Zig zag patterns are associated with DMT.
QED.

Hancocks small handful of examples for this were drawn from rock carvings all over the world from Australia to South Africa. He was totally unable to support his position by showing any drawings from artists known to have taken anything containing DMT before drawing anything. So at the best its highly speculatory and at worst cherry picking to support a theory that he arrived at before examining any evidence and is much more likely originated by Hancocks own addiction with recreational drugs than anything any ancient ever did. In other words, hes into pharmaceuticals and would do anything to justify his indulgence in the eyes of his supporters.

The BBC called him intellectually dishonest for a reason yanno

 

[Maia]

(sigh)

Against my better judgment, I'm offering an informed opinion here. DMT, like the other psychomimetic drugs, has two main mechanisms of action. One is dissociative and is related to the hallucinatory effects; the other is as a direct serotonin agonist at the 5HT2A receptor. DMT (like the other psychomimetics) is, I believe, a Schedule I drug and is illegal under all circumstances (except possibly a few experimental uses...not sure about that); a few serotonin agonists at that receptor are legal drugs. Topiramate (Topamax) is one, which I do take (an antiepileptic). Again, it does NOT have any of the hallucinatory effects, so if there ever were any weird psychic visions involved (whatever those would even be), nobody gets them from it. But it's used for a wide spectrum of applications against addictions, because it does seem to promote insight into addictive behaviors and a way to break the cycle. It's a fascinating med, but I can't imagine that it would ever be a recreational drug, as DMT is.

However, T is also an antimigraine med, so anybody taking it generally already has a history of seeing zigzag patterns. There may be something about activity at that receptor that's associated with migraines and their symptoms. Could that be why shamans saw the zigzags when they took DMT (which has the same receptor activity, remember), so they then drew the patterns they were seeing? It's a possible explanation if there actually IS anything to that story, but it may not be as farfetched as it seems because of the 5HT2A connection.

 

[Naddig74]

When I stand up in too much of a hurry, I see zig-zags, criss-crosses and paisley patterns as I pass out.

 

[bit_pattern]

Details please

I don't really feel much like arguing the point on a sceptics site, by its very nature it was a purely subjective experience so could never pass the reasonable standards of your average sceptic but for me it was a deeply profound experience that changed my mind, not that I would expect my subjective experience should ever change anyone else's mind. But, for the record, I was given a clear premonition of death 8 months before it occurred; the DMT spirits, or whatever you'd call the experience, I'm happy to interpret it as "spirits", seemed to be conducting some sort of healing on me then my father appeared in the vision and the "spirits" went to him and tried doing the same thing but came back with a shrug of the shoulders saying it was "too late" for him and that his time was almost up. He died 8 months later of a massive coronary failure. People can rationalise it all they want, maybe there was something inside of me that "knew" his time was up (he was a life long smoker for instance, and that was undoubtedly the cause of his death, a rational person would know that it had to kill him eventually, maybe I was projecting my fears) but for me it was entirely convincing. I've also done ayahuasca ceremonies in the Amazon, there are things that DMT can access in your mind that are inconceivable that a drug could know such things, and by extension the shaman running the ceremony. I like being sceptical and I think that a rigorous examination of this compound is warranted, but I also think that any such sceptical enquiry into the effects of the compound would yield results much more profound than some of the sneering and mocking attitudes on display in this thread could ever really comprehend.

 

[bit_pattern]

(sigh)

Against my better judgment, I'm offering an informed opinion here. DMT, like the other psychomimetic drugs, has two main mechanisms of action. One is dissociative and is related to the hallucinatory effects; the other is as a direct serotonin agonist at the 5HT2A receptor. DMT (like the other psychomimetics) is, I believe, a Schedule I drug and is illegal under all circumstances (except possibly a few experimental uses...not sure about that); a few serotonin agonists at that receptor are legal drugs. Topiramate (Topamax) is one, which I do take (an antiepileptic). Again, it does NOT have any of the hallucinatory effects, so if there ever were any weird psychic visions involved (whatever those would even be), nobody gets them from it. But it's used for a wide spectrum of applications against addictions, because it does seem to promote insight into addictive behaviors and a way to break the cycle. It's a fascinating med, but I can't imagine that it would ever be a recreational drug, as DMT is.

However, T is also an antimigraine med, so anybody taking it generally already has a history of seeing zigzag patterns. There may be something about activity at that receptor that's associated with migraines and their symptoms. Could that be why shamans saw the zigzags when they took DMT (which has the same receptor activity, remember), so they then drew the patterns they were seeing? It's a possible explanation if there actually IS anything to that story, but it may not be as farfetched as it seems because of the 5HT2A connection.

It's a lot more than seeing zig-zaggy patterns, let me assure you. And, of course there is a neurochemical explanation, but when you boil it down our entire experience of life is just a neurochemical reaction and there may very well be something very profound in investigating the ability of the brain to react to neurochemical changes that give a radically different perception of reality. And IF the brain is capable of such things as psychic visions then the neurochemisty involved in catalysing such visions would be a good starting point for any sceptical investigation into the properties of both the nature of reality as we perceive it and the efficacy of compounds such as DMT in promoting such radical shifts in perception.

 

[Naddig74]

I don't really feel much like arguing the point on a sceptics site, by its very nature it was a purely subjective experience so could never pass the reasonable standards of your average sceptic but for me it was a deeply profound experience that changed my mind, not that I would expect my subjective experience should ever change anyone else's mind. But, for the record, I was given a clear premonition of death 8 months before it occurred; the DMT spirits, or whatever you'd call the experience, I'm happy to interpret it as "spirits", seemed to be conducting some sort of healing on me then my father appeared in the vision and the "spirits" went to him and tried doing the same thing but came back with a shrug of the shoulders saying it was "too late" for him and that his time was almost up. He died 8 months later of a massive coronary failure. People can rationalise it all they want, maybe there was something inside of me that "knew" his time was up (he was a life long smoker for instance, and that was undoubtedly the cause of his death, a rational person would know that it had to kill him eventually, maybe I was projecting my fears) but for me it was entirely convincing. I've also done ayahuasca ceremonies in the Amazon, there are things that DMT can access in your mind that are inconceivable that a drug could know such things, and by extension the shaman running the ceremony. I like being sceptical and I think that a rigorous examination of this compound is warranted, but I also think that any such sceptical enquiry into the effects of the compound would yield results much more profound than some of the sneering and mocking attitudes on display in this thread could ever really comprehend.

Very sorry to hear about your dad, first of all.

Painful question, I know, but in your vision did you actually know exactly how long it would be until your father died? I know my parents are going to die, and myself and my daughter, but that's not a premonition it's just a fact of life. Everyone dies. I don't know when it's going to happen. The fear projection idea seems most plausible to me.

The 'sneering and mocking' in this thread is directed less at the concept of DMT being able to access psychic powers, and more at woddyallen's methods of publicising his website/movie/loneliness. His posts are word salad, he refuses to answer reasonable questions, most of his posts are virtually identical, he fails, or refuses, to understand the relationship between Randi and the forum, he misrepresents other forum members and his main agenda here seems to have been solely to accrue enough posts to be allowed to post a link to his film. Since he achieved this, his own posts have become mocking and sneering. Obvious troll is obvious.

I think everyone here is ready to discuss this subject sensibly, I am anyway, but very few people on this forum are going to come at the debate from a standpoint other than 'we need extraordinary evidence.' Also, the fact that DMT is a prohibited substance is bound to cause problems creating any reasonable protocol for a test.

 

[bit_pattern]

Very sorry to hear about your dad, first of all.

Painful question, I know, but in your vision did you actually know exactly how long it would be until your father died? I know my parents are going to die, and myself and my daughter, but that's not a premonition it's just a fact of life. Everyone dies. I don't know when it's going to happen. The fear projection idea seems most plausible to me.

No. But at the same time it didn't give premonitions about any other member of my family, like my Mum or my brothers or the two grandparents that died in the same 12 month period. He also dies at 53 which, in this day and age, isn't exactly old, even taking his cigarette addiction into consideration. But, again, I'm not seeking to convince anyone else but for me it was a profound and eye-opening experience that makes me question whether our current perception of reality is the be all and end all of things and whether or not profound shifts in ones experience of reality can give significant insight into the reality that we all inhabit atm.

Also, the fact that DMT is a prohibited substance is bound to cause problems creating any reasonable protocol for a test.

MAPS have gotten FDA permission to use DMT among other compounds for a variety of studies, although I doubt psychic potential of DMT is on the cards yet, still an interesting resource for bona fide research into the potential of psychedelic compounds.

 

[bit_pattern]

And, just in terms of potential for phenomena such as psychic ability, if one were to look for a sceptical and rational explanation then starting with neurochemistry (DMT is an endogenous chemical) would be a good point imo, as it would for a whole raft of 'paranormal' experience. Even if such experiences were shown to be a result of neurochemical changes then wouldn't that raise some interesting questions about the nature of the mind and our ability to experience such things. It might even call into question the primacy of any particular state of mind having sway over our interpretation of reality?

 

[Akhenaten]

And, just in terms of potential for phenomena such as psychic ability . . .

What does 'potential for phenomena such as psychic ability' mean?

Is there more potential for these phenomena than there is for the existence of leprechauns?

. . . if one were to look for a sceptical and rational explanation then starting with neurochemistry (DMT is an endogenous chemical) would be a good point imo, as it would for a whole raft of 'paranormal' experience.

No. A more sceptical and rational starting point is to demonstrate that these paranormal experiences exist.

A million bucks says this part can't be done, so looking for whatever enables them seems a bit premature.

Even if such experiences were shown to be a result of neurochemical changes then wouldn't that raise some interesting questions about the nature of the mind and our ability to experience such things.

What experiences? Drug-induced hallucinations may be kind of interesting, but they aren't 'psychic phenomena'.

It might even call into question the primacy of any particular state of mind having sway over our interpretation of reality?

Might it? Good-oh.

 

[Ashles]

Can beer and pizza and time off work playing Fallout 3 cause psychic visions?

I demand James Randi do some studies with me to find out.