Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?

Zanders said:
I'll go ahead and add another one. first off, I know that "Marian apparitions" couldn't be Mary and are full of ******** contradictions. I have a huge lists of reasons why "The Virgin Mary" appearing in the first place contradicts the Bible and I'm not even religious, but if something happened the events could be some form of paranormal activity.
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Staring directly at the Sun is dumb.

No, the events could not be some form of paranormal activity.
 
sthomson said:
Did you even read the Wikipedia page on Miracle of the Sun? We're just going to be repeating it. Here, I'll excerpt it for you:

It's not hard to predict retinal damage. Just say, "Hey you guys, meet me in this field! It will be awesome!" then when they get there, have them stare at the sun behind a cloud for a long time. When it comes out, it will look REALLY COOL. You will be hailed as a prophet.

Edited to add:
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It seems that the section has been trimmed down a bit since the last time I read it, but it stated that the staring at the sun was most likely not the reason because there was no damage to anyone's vision reported. I will try to find a reference to that somewhere. Also, the very first reports of what they saw said it did not hurt their eyes and one notable report said it didn't seem that bright. I will add some more information later, there were some interesting things about the event that make it harder to just classify as the result of staring at the sun.

One of the interesting things about the date

The date of the "Miracle of the Sun" was actually mentioned before Lucia said the date by a spirit medium through automatic writing. He said that “The date of May 13th will be one of great happiness for the good souls of the world- have faith and be good and that love is always at your side and friends will assist you in your work and the brightness of the Morning Star will illuminate the path for you". This was published in some newspapers, and I will post some references later. Here is another one.

"A group of psychics in Lisbon got the number 135917 a cipher for the date of the first apparition and published the message in newspapers in March 1917. The publication of a number and a few words was a strange thing to do. To spiritualists it seems they felt compelled to do so, so it was an important date."
 
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Zanders said:
It seems that the section has been trimmed down a bit since the last time I read it, but it stated that the staring at the sun was most likely not the reason because there was no damage to anyone's vision reported. I will try to find a reference to that somewhere. Also, the very first reports of what they saw said it did not hurt their eyes and one notable report said it didn't seem that bright. I will add some more information later, there were some interesting things about the event that make it harder to just classify as the result of staring at the sun.
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"Damage to vision" was reported by the people who witnessed the sun changing colors and dancing around the sky. Regardless, where would it have been reported? Were skeptics going around doing eye checks? And if believers did experience damaged vision, wouldn't they have attributed it to the after-effects of looking at an angel? (Contrary to popular belief, staring at the sun for long periods of time will not make you go permanently blind)

If this were a miracle, explain to me how many people reported that they saw nothing out of the ordinary? Believers, even? Or that many people reported simple rainbow parhelion? (even I could predict parhelion on a day, in mid-fall, in Portugal)
 
Ignore all of the other things mentioned in this thread then, they really aren't anything special. The thing about Swedenborg is the only thing that still interests me.
 
Zanders said:
Ignore all of the other things mentioned in this thread then, they really aren't anything special. The thing about Swedenborg is the only thing that still interests me.
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The alleged event took place almost three hundred years ago, so it's impossible to either confirm or debunk it. The time for doing more research on the incident passed a long, long time ago. The subject, Swedenborg, also believed that there were belching-men on the moon, something that's been thoroughly debunked. This tends to discredit him quite a bit.

1759 was a very primitive time, scientifically speaking. The germ theory of disease wasn't discovered until the late 1800s. They didn't have telephones, telegraphs, or electricity. Wherever there is a lack of knowledge, there is room for magical, supernatural explanations to take hold in people's imaginations. Swedenborg (through no fault of his own) suffered from a serious lack of knowledge, as did Kant and everyone else involved in this incident.

We are asked to accept testimony from seriously ignorant people who lived almost 300 years ago as solid evidence of supernatural powers. I, for one, am not willing to accept such shaky anecdotal evidence as proof of anything. The question remains, why are you willing to accept such crusty, unreliable evidence as proof?

Why do you want to believe so badly that you have to reach back almost 300 years for evidence that supports your belief in dubious psychic powers? Is the world not amazing enough as it is? Are man's achievements, with telephones, telegraphs, modern medicine, and computers not amazing enough for you, so that you need to imagine that man has some sort of magic on top of these brilliant and amazing discoveries? That's what I want to know---why do you want to believe so badly?
 
Zanders said:
Ignore all of the other things mentioned in this thread then, they really aren't anything special. The thing about Swedenborg is the only thing that still interests me.
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:rolleyes:

Theres this book called the bible, inside is a claim that God knows what people are thinking all the time

please evaluate the claim
 
paximperium said:
What do you find interesting?
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And why?

We have a story from 250 years ago, and the central character clearly had a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock. No decent documentation of any of the claims.

It's quite clear that it's just a story, like so many other stories, and we have no reason to believe that it's true.

So why?
 
PixyMisa said:
And why?

We have a story from 250 years ago, and the central character clearly had a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock. No decent documentation of any of the claims.

It's quite clear that it's just a story, like so many other stories, and we have no reason to believe that it's true.

So why?
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Well, quite. I'm not sure why it matters so much to Zander. Perhaps he/she should be asking him/herself that question.
 
It is because I find Swdenborg to be a fascinating character, and I already did before I heard about the supposed "clairvoyance". I understand that it is a little silly that I'm so interested in this one event, but it is this combined with other things about him. We can pretty much close this thread now, but I would appreciate it if some other people with similarly fantastic stories and rumors around them to put it in perspective. Swedenborg is most likely just lucky because he wasn't that high profile, so nobody felt the need to go in and debunk him.

And a better statement than "I was a skeptic" would be that I thought I was skeptical but clearly need some education on critical thinking. I guess I've kind of softened over time, I seem to be looking for things with the bias of wanting to find the paranormal.
 
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Here is one thing I forgot to mention

http://newearth.org/frontier/eswesley.html

Can anybody prove that this letter did not happen? Aren't the stories a bit numerous to just shrug off?

http://newearth.org/frontier/escrown.html

"I shall not die until I have received from the press this work . . . now ready to be printed." He referred to the manuscript to be published in 1771 in Holland under the title True Christian Religion."

"At the age of eighty-four, when the average life span was barely fifty years, Swedenborg died in London on March 29, 1772."

The events surrounding him really freak me out, and I am having trouble denying that something supernatural was going on with him. I don't even want them to be, the thought of that scares me.

And some other events not related to Swedenborg.

"In many ways the appearances over the Coptic Church of St Mary at Zeitoun, Cairo, were the most interesting and the most credible. They concerned not the Roman Church, but the Coptic Church, and Coptic bishops, including the Coptic Patriarch's representative, were among the millions of Christians, Muslims, Jews and non-believers, who many times witnessed the apparitions over a period of three years, from 1968-1971. The Coptic Church recognized the apparitions as true appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary, as did the Coptic Catholic Church, the Greek Catholic Church, and the then Head of the Evangelical Church and Speaker on behalf of all the Protestant Churches of Egypt. Even the Egyptian Government Director of General Information and Complaints Department submitted a report to his superior stating that it was "an undeniable fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing on the Coptic Orthodox Church at Zeitoun ..." The vision maintained a complete silence. There were no threats of punishment, pushing of Latin dogmas and practices, apocalyptic warnings and no trances."

The apparition appeared on the domes of the church for up to two hours or more at a time, always at night, but not every night and not at regular times. The Lady appeared in glittering light—so bright that her features could not be clearly seen—which streamed across the church. She was invariably preceded or accompanied by luminous "doves," "strange bird-like creatures made of light," which did not flap their wings but glided. The figure moved across the domes bowing and greeting the enormous crowds, estimated at times to be as many as 250,000 people. Sometimes she blessed them or held out an olive branch. The Patriarch's representative described her as "very quiet, full of glory." Occasionally she was seen holding the Child, or as part of the Holy Family. All prayed in their own way—Moslems reciting the Koran on their prayer mats, Greeks saying prayers, Copts singing hymns. The "doves" were consistently mentioned by eyewitnesses. Other phenomena were a "shower of diamonds," a glowing red cloud, and billowing clouds of incense. Spectacular and medically authenticated cures took place, although as at the other shrines, these were few in number compared with the multitudes of sick people.
 
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You may be shocked to hear this, but about half of us live longer than average.

In an age/area with high child mortality, any adult (especially one old enought to be historically notable) is very likely to live longer than average. (Exception: Famous warriors, for some reason...)

84 years is not a supernatural lifespan.

So at least THAT is taken care of. :)
 
I'm most interested in finding if that letter was really sent. A ton of sites reference it, but that doesn't prove that it really happened. What I need is a reference to the letter by John Wesley himself, or somebody that knew him.

Here is the only thing related that I could find

http://www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/ES/epicep.htm

"When the news of Swedenborg's death reached John Wesley, the Methodist leader was in the neighborhood of Liverpool, visiting his friend Richard Houghton, Esq., a pious gentleman who had been favorably impressed with Swedenborg's teachings and who exchanged letters on that subject with the Rev. Thomas Hartley. Evidently Wesley's mind was then under a rather powerful influence working in Swedenborg's favor, for Houghton repeats a significant comment that Wesley then made: "We may now burn all our books on theology. God has sent us a teacher from heaven, and in the doctrines of Swedenborg we may learn all that is necessary for us to know."

In view of subsequent events one might almost take this extreme statement for sarcasm were it not for the fact that Mr. Houghton repeated it to a friend of his to induce him to read the writings of the inspired Swede. The friend was the Rev. John Clowes, rector of St. John's, Manchester, whose acceptance of Swedenborg was preceded by a supernatural experience.[761] (Appendix G.) Clowes later became a powerful leader in the spread of the new teachings.

The Liverpool incident must have occurred early in April, 1772, thus within six weeks after Wesley is said to have received Swedenborg's extraordinary communication announcing the day of his death. Of course the man's actual death on the day predicted would have been a startling argument in favor of his claims to supernatural knowledge. Shortly afterward, however, came an equally clear proof of another of Swedenborg's claims, his assertion, namely, that miracles do not convince anyone.[762] For, as we shall see, Mr. Wesley was able to throw off all favorable influences as soon as he found that Swedenborg's teachings militated against his inner convictions."


This does not present any proof or quotations that confirm the prediction being made. Help with this would be much appreciated. Almost all that I find on it is from Swedenborg related websites. Now I am interested in whatever "supernatural experience" got John Clowes to accept Swedenborg. The fact that John Wesley turned on Swedenborg is reason to beleive that the prediction of his death date didn't happen, and the speculative "must have occurred" shows that this page is just basing this off of things they heard elsewhere. I also noticed that there was no citation related to the letter.

EDIT:

The story of Clowes' coversion is listed here under "Appendix G"
http://www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/ES/epicapp.htm
 
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