Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?

[Jack by the hedge]

It gives insight into what Kant thought of Swedenborg and his work, but it doesn't add any new information on the story about the fire except that respectable folk in Stockholm were aware of the story and apparently believed it.

Edit to add: I wonder if the fire in question was the first or second of the major fires which wiki mentions in the 1750s. As it's in the middle of 1759, the chances are it's the latter. I wonder whether Swedenborg really did declare to his hosts that there was a fire in Stockholm, or whether he actually told them the story of the other recent fire - possibly expressing fear of a repetition. That in itself would be regarded as quite a coincidence, when they learned there really had been a fire, and the story might well then be improved in the telling. Just a thought.

 

[Zanders]

Amazing coincidences do happen, though. It would have really helped if Swedenborg had actually kept his word and met responded to Kant. I wonder why he never replied to him, especially if he made promises, since he was supposedly so morally upright. Of course, this was early in Kant's career, so he might not have found him worth his time (which would still be rude and dishonest if he said he would)

 

[Marduk]

I think the fact that Swedenborg only came up with the idea that Stockholm was on fire when he returned from the garden speaks volumes

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Weeeeel, I'm not discounting the possibility, but it was late July and <quickly Googles> over 57° North: The night would never have got completely dark.

 

[Marduk]

Weeeeel, I'm not discounting the possibility, but it was late July and <quickly Googles> over 57° North: The night would never have got completely dark.

They have 5 hours of night. Its usually dark as night, hence the term
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=239

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There's dark and there's dark. I grew up 55° North and, in the summer, there was always a glow in the sky to the North. Made childhood back garden astronomy a winter-only affair.

 

[Zanders]

The entire thing is a hoax and the priest responsible has been defrocked.

Ok, that is good. But what about the incurable disease (multiple sclerosis) going away? It mentions doctors confirming it, and it happening on the date that was predicted. Unless that was also staged, with even the doctors included.

 

[Zanders]

Edited for being an accidental double post.

 

[paximperium]

Ok, that is good. But what about the incurable disease (multiple sclerosis) going away?

What about a disease with a variable waxing-waning course?

It mentions doctors confirming it, and it happening on the date that was predicted.

Did it?

Unless that was also staged, with even the doctors included.

What makes you think true believers can't be doctors?
What makes you think it happened as claimed?

Edit:
Have you ever wondered why these "cures" seem to occur with diseases with either variable courses or very subjective presentations? Why haven't we seen a miracle with someone's amputated arm growing back or a giant tumor vanishing overnight or half a skull popping back into existence?
Why is it these "cures" have been documented (with no miracles involved) my modern medicine?

 

[PixyMisa]

Ok, that is good. But what about the incurable disease (multiple sclerosis) going away? It mentions doctors confirming it, and it happening on the date that was predicted. Unless that was also staged, with even the doctors included.

What part of "the entire thing is a hoax" do you find difficult to understand?

 

[PixyMisa]

Amazing coincidences do happen, though. It would have really helped if Swedenborg had actually kept his word and met responded to Kant. I wonder why he never replied to him, especially if he made promises, since he was supposedly so morally upright.

Says who? Swedenborg?

Anyway, he was crazy as a bedbug, so who knows?

Of course, this was early in Kant's career, so he might not have found him worth his time (which would still be rude and dishonest if he said he would)

Maybe Kant realised that Swedenborg was crazy as a bedbug and dropped the whole thing.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

[QUOTE-KANT]How can we raise any serious objections to the truth and credibility of such a story? The friend who transmitted to me this information had examined all the facts personally, both at Stockholm and Gotenborg as recently as two months ago. He is well acquainted with some of the leading families in Gotenborg; everyone concerned told him the same story about this incident..." [/QUOTE]As yes. Surely if I heard it from Kant, who heard from a friend, who knew some people in the same city, where their were people that told the same story, about a guy that they heard about, who had done something paranormal, then it MUST be true. How could that go wrong? Of course Kant didn’t have Snopes and knowledge of urban legends and such to know how easy it is to start rumors and spread stories that were witnessed by a friend’s friend, which was actually witnessed by their friend, which was actually witnessed by their friend, which was actually witnessed by their friend, etc. To the point that we don’t even have anything close to an original account of the story.

It could have been fraud. It could have been made up. It could have been a lucky guess. It could have been confirmation bias after the fact. It was probably not paranormal.

 

[PixyMisa]

Kant does come across as, how shall I put it, not terribly bright.

 

[Irish Murdoch]

Kant does come across as, how shall I put it, not terribly bright.

I'm not rising to the bait!

I loved all the speculation in the linked document about Kant's motives, though. We know not much at all about Kant's life, apart from his works, and the fact that, apart from them, nothing much of any moment occurred in his life.

 

[fungus]

Explanation: People invent stuff and/or lie about what really happened.

This is why older, wiser skeptics routinely reject anecdotes/books as 'evidence'.

 

[dlorde]

Just a point of information. Goteborg and Stockholm are sea level cities on the opposite coasts of Sweden . Typical horizon at sea level is about 3 miles.
The glow of flames on a cloud at 10,000 feet could be seen (under perfect conditions) at 130 miles.
I do not accept any reasonable probability of seeing physical evidence of a fire at the actual separation of these two cities.

Ok,ok, so he got a telegraph message...

 

[Zanders]

Says who? Swedenborg?

Anyway, he was crazy as a bedbug, so who knows?


Maybe Kant realised that Swedenborg was crazy as a bedbug and dropped the whole thing.

The links I posted earlier said that Kant wanted to contact him or meet him, but Swedenborg kept ignoring him. Also, as stated in an earlier post he did not seem mentally insane to anyone that met him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedenborg#Veracity

http://thenewphilosophyonline.org/journal/article.php?issue=sanity&page=1000

a special issue of the academic journal The New Philosophy (1998;101: whole number), in which a number of authors review the question of Swedenborg's sanity. The issue draws the conclusion based on its analysis of the historical evidence that he was not insane.

 

[Marduk]

There's dark and there's dark. I grew up 55° North and, in the summer, there was always a glow in the sky to the North. Made childhood back garden astronomy a winter-only affair.

Thats hardly relevant, as Stockholm was to the east

 

[Zanders]

I'll go ahead and add another one. first off, I know that "Marian apparitions" couldn't be Mary and are full of ******** contradictions. I have a huge lists of reasons why "The Virgin Mary" appearing in the first place contradicts the Bible and I'm not even religious, but if something happened the events could be some form of paranormal activity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fátima

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_sun

The thing that is special about this event isn't what was seen in the sky, but that it was predicted and happened exactly when the little girl "was told" it would. It was even reported in an anti-clerical publication, and many of the witness were skeptical and not expecting anything to happen. Keep in mind that people also saw it from their houses from a distance. But, also keep in mind that this didn't happen in Fatima, it was actually around three miles away. It's interesting how people claimed that it was "Our Lad of Fatima", most likely to force a connection to Islam's "prophet" Muhammad's favorite daughter.

 

[sthomson]

I'll go ahead and add another one. first off, I know that "Marian apparitions" couldn't be Mary and are full of ******** contradictions. I have a huge lists of reasons why "The Virgin Mary" appearing in the first place contradicts the Bible and I'm not even religious, but if something happened the events could be some form of paranormal activity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fátima

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_sun

The thing that is special about this event isn't what was seen in the sky, but that it was predicted and happened exactly when the little girl "was told" it would. It was even reported in an anti-clerical publication, and many of the witness were skeptical and not expecting anything to happen. Keep in mind that people also saw it from their houses from a distance. But, also keep in mind that this didn't happen in Fatima, it was actually around three miles away. It's interesting how people claimed that it was "Our Lad of Fatima", most likely to force a connection to Islam's "prophet" Muhammad's favorite daughter.

Did you even read the Wikipedia page on Miracle of the Sun? We're just going to be repeating it. Here, I'll excerpt it for you:

the reported observations were optical effects caused by prolonged staring at the sun. Meessen contends that retinal after-images produced after brief periods of sun gazing are a likely cause of the observed dancing effects. Similarly Meessen states that the colour changes witnessed were most likely caused by the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells.[25] Meessen observes that Sun Miracles have been witnessed in many places where religiously charged pilgrims have been encouraged to stare at the sun. He cites the apparitions at Heroldsbach, Germany (1949) as an example, where exactly the same optical effects as at Fatima were witnessed by more than 10,000 people.[25] Meessen also cites a British Journal of Ophthalmology article that discusses some modern examples of Sun Miracles

It's not hard to predict retinal damage. Just say, "Hey you guys, meet me in this field! It will be awesome!" then when they get there, have them stare at the sun behind a cloud for a long time. When it comes out, it will look REALLY COOL. You will be hailed as a prophet.

Edited to add:

Despite these assertions, not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors. Others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.