Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?

[Ririon]

As previously noted here, there are plenty of logical non-supernatural explanations to be had if you want them.

If you prefer supernatural explanations, there are some of those, too.

To really find out what is going on, we should test the guy under controlled conditions. I'm sure some organization somewhere would even pay him a significant amount of money to pass a test under controlled conditions. But wait, we can't since he is very very dead.

I have heard about this other person who could transform simple water into delicious wine. A simple testable claim. Worth a million easily. But wait. He is dead, too. Do you have a logical explanation for his claimed ability? I am sure you could think of several. Does it make any difference? Not really.

 

[Zanders]

Right now I am curious about the large number of claims made about his powers by many different people. I'm running through those claims and seeing if they can be exposed as tall tales. So if anyone could find a reference to the letter supposedly sent to John Wesley from a reliable source, it would be hugely appreciated. I will keep digging around to see what I can find. Alone the stories wouldn't be anything worth looking at, it's just that there are so many stories about the same person.

 

[Ririon]

"The plural of anecdote is not data".

Or evidence, fact or proof.

It is "anecdotes".

And sure, anecdotes are fun.

(There are many amazing anecdotes about the water/wine-guy too, you know. Did you know he could walk on water as well as turn it into wine? Impressive stuff.)

 

[dafydd]

I'm trying to be as critical as I can and not just brush something off quickly with the most simple explanation I can find. I want to be very thorough and open minded before I discard claims. This is not the only event that has gotten me more interested in exploring phenomenon like this, and I can post some others later.

There are better ways to waste your time.

 

[Zanders]

"The plural of anecdote is not data".

Or evidence, fact or proof.

It is "anecdotes".

And sure, anecdotes are fun.

(There are many amazing anecdotes about the water/wine-guy too, you know. Did you know he could walk on water as well as turn it into wine? Impressive stuff.)

That's not really the same, since unlike the stories of Jesus these are much more recent and were written during his lifetime.

I'm wondering why John Wesley said upon hearing Swedenborg's death "We may now burn all our books on theology. God has sent us a teacher from heaven, and in the doctrines of Swedenborg we may learn all that is necessary for us to know.". It is speculating, but maybe such an extreme comment was due to him remembering that Swedenborg predicted the date. Although I haven't been able to find proof that the letter exists, or if that was exactly what it actually said.

 

[Sledge]

You're not interested in a rational explanation. Why don't you take this nonsense to a woo forum where they'll fall over themselves giving you all the attention you want?

 

[Zanders]

Because I appreciate the responses and explanations I have gotten so far. I actually want people to dissect and tear these things apart. So far everything I have posted has gotten a good explanation. But when one person has so many things written about them, doesn't it need to be looked in to?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I'm wondering why John Wesley said upon hearing Swedenborg's death "We may now burn all our books on theology. God has sent us a teacher from heaven, and in the doctrines of Swedenborg we may learn all that is necessary for us to know.". It is speculating, but maybe such an extreme comment was due to him remembering that Swedenborg predicted the date. Although I haven't been able to find proof that the letter exists, or if that was exactly what it actually said.

Yeah, that's speculating, sure enough.

Wesley's alleged comment looks exactly like sarcasm to me. Did he go on to burn all his books on theology? Did he advise anyone else to do so? No? Hmm. Looks even more certainly like sarcasm to me.

If the person it was addressed to later repeated the remark as if it had been sincerely meant, that is not evidence that Wesley really was sincere. Only that he was quoted disingenuously.

Good luck finding any actual evidence of the contents of the letter to Wesley, or even that it ever existed. Just because an eccentric managed to accumulate a collection of spooky stories about himself which have been kept going by credulous people does not in itself mean it "needs to be looked into". However, if you feel determined to look into it yourself, that's fine. Do please let us know if you ever unearth any shred of actual evidence for the various stories. I really mean that. I don't believe it'll happen, but I'm not being sarcastic.

 

[Sledge]

Because I appreciate the responses and explanations I have gotten so far. I actually want people to dissect and tear these things apart. So far everything I have posted has gotten a good explanation. But when one person has so many things written about them, doesn't it need to be looked in to?

And again: how do you propose anyone does that? The man is dead. Everyone who knew him is dead. Anyone who witnessed any of this is dead. These are stories. Quit wasting your time on them.

 

[Ririon]

That's not really the same, since unlike the stories of Jesus these are much more recent and were written during his lifetime.

No. They are both dead. So for all practical purposes (can we test the claims?) they are exactly as recent. Your guy doesn't even have a fan base claiming that he is still alive and can perform today.

Predicting the exact date and time of your own death is very easy if you are willing to make it happen a little sooner than nature intended. Cyanide in an old man in an age before autopsies were common? Natural causes. There: One more logical explanation (you have no way of verifying). If you put your mind to it you can come up with 10 more. But why?

 

[Apology]

Yeah, that's speculating, sure enough.

Wesley's alleged comment looks exactly like sarcasm to me. Did he go on to burn all his books on theology? Did he advise anyone else to do so? No? Hmm. Looks even more certainly like sarcasm to me.

A second theory: Wesley got taken for a ride, flim-flammed, bamboozled, and completely fooled by Swedenborg. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got scammed by a 16 year old and a 10 year old in the Cottingley Fairies fiasco as late as 1921, and he seemed like a pretty smart guy.

And again: how do you propose anyone does that? The man is dead. Everyone who knew him is dead. Anyone who witnessed any of this is dead. These are stories. Quit wasting your time on them.

I concur with your conclusion.

 

[dafydd]

That's not really the same, since unlike the stories of Jesus these are much more recent and were written during his lifetime.

I'm wondering why John Wesley said upon hearing Swedenborg's death "We may now burn all our books on theology. God has sent us a teacher from heaven, and in the doctrines of Swedenborg we may learn all that is necessary for us to know.". It is speculating, but maybe such an extreme comment was due to him remembering that Swedenborg predicted the date. Although I haven't been able to find proof that the letter exists, or if that was exactly what it actually said.

The stories about Jesus were not written during his lifetime.

 

[dafydd]

Because I appreciate the responses and explanations I have gotten so far. I actually want people to dissect and tear these things apart. So far everything I have posted has gotten a good explanation. But when one person has so many things written about them, doesn't it need to be looked in to?

No,many apocryphal tales have been written about various people over the centuries,why single one out?

 

[dafydd]

Yeah, that's speculating, sure enough.

Wesley's alleged comment looks exactly like sarcasm to me. Did he go on to burn all his books on theology? Did he advise anyone else to do so? No? Hmm. Looks even more certainly like sarcasm to me.

If the person it was addressed to later repeated the remark as if it had been sincerely meant, that is not evidence that Wesley really was sincere. Only that he was quoted disingenuously.

Good luck finding any actual evidence of the contents of the letter to Wesley, or even that it ever existed. Just because an eccentric managed to accumulate a collection of spooky stories about himself which have been kept going by credulous people does not in itself mean it "needs to be looked into". However, if you feel determined to look into it yourself, that's fine. Do please let us know if you ever unearth any shred of actual evidence for the various stories. I really mean that. I don't believe it'll happen, but I'm not being sarcastic.

That reminds me of Isaac Newton's ''standing on the shoulders of giants'' remark.He was not being modest,it was a dig at Robert Hooke,who was about 4 feet tall.You can't always take what someone writes at face value.Wesley's remark reeks of sarcasm.

 

[Fox]

It might be best to look up Emanuel Swedenborg on wikipedia before reading this information, so you will be more familiar with what he does..

"There are three well known incidents of psychic ability reported in literature about Swedenborg.[48] The first was from July 29, 1759, when during a dinner in Gothenburg, he excitedly told the party at six o' clock that there was a fire in Stockholm (405 km away), that it consumed his neighbour's home and was threatening his own. Two hours later, he exclaimed with relief that the fire stopped three doors from his home. Two days later, reports confirmed every statement to the precise hour that Swedenborg first expressed the information.[49]"

There are other cases that I will post later, but it will be inconvenient without begin able to post links.

You know when you say something will happen and then you try to make it happen? This is such a case, arson is a felony these days and will get you arrested. I predicted once after watching a documentary of a bear man in alaska getting eaten, that Steve Erwin was going to die soon in a way that no one would expect. Four months later bam, Steve Erwin died via stingray. I had gotten a lucky guess... I'm sure there were millions of other people that had been saying the same exact thing as I did for years, this could also be the case, but I severely feel that 'this particular' case was arsony.

 

[Zanders]

A second theory: Wesley got taken for a ride, flim-flammed, bamboozled, and completely fooled by Swedenborg. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got scammed by a 16 year old and a 10 year old in the Cottingley Fairies fiasco as late as 1921, and he seemed like a pretty smart guy.



I concur with your conclusion.

The Cottingley Fairies are much easier to fake knowing the date of your death.

Something else.

http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/articles/Swedenborgs-revelation/odo58.htm

" Toward the end of February, 1772, Wesley was at a meeting with some of his ministers, among whom was the Rev. Samuel Smith. 60 During the meeting a letter arrived for Wesley. He read it; his face registered surprise; he turned and read it to his ministers. As far as Mr. Smith could recall, the contents were as follows:

"Sir-I have been informed in the spiritual world that you have a strong desire to converse with me; I shall be happy to see you if you will favor me with a visit.

"I am, Sir, your humble Servant,

EMANUEL SWEDENBORG"

According to Mr. Smith, Wesley frankly acknowledged his desire to converse with Swedenborg, but said he had never mentioned it to anyone. He was about to leave on a six months' tour of his churches, however, so he wrote Swedenborg, saying he would see him thereafter. Smith says he later learned that Swedenborg wrote back, that the proposed visit would be too late, as he himself would go into the spiritual world the 29th of the next month

So now we know where these stories came from. Whoever Rev. Samuel Smith

http://books.google.com/books?id=jK...w#v=onepage&q=Samuel Smith swedenborg&f=false

This gives more insight in to that event. read that page and a little further down.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Wait a minute - that book states that this Samuel Smith was present when Swedenborg's letter was received and read out, implying that Smith may have been the witness who passed on the story of the letter's contents and of Wesley's reaction to it (though it doesn't actually say so straight out). But that letter did not mention Swedenborg's prediction of his own death. It only said he believed Wesley wanted to meet him.

A second letter predicting the date of his death could only have been sent later, in reply to Wesley's letter proposing a meeting 6 months later.

The book is carelessly (or deliberately) ambiguous when it conflates these two messages into "the letter". There's no mention of how the writer knows of the existence of the claimed later correspondence, let alone how he knows anything of its contents.


By the way, do you have any information regarding the speed with which letters could be sent between Sweden and England in winter in the 1770s? The claimed timeline seems rather short.

The first letter arrives some date in February:

Swedenburg 1: "The spirits tell me you want to meet me"
Wesley reply: "I'm going away for 6 months. Can we meet then?"
Swedenburg 2: "Nope, sorry. I'll be dead by the 29th of March"

<edit to add> Sorry - I see that you said "Smith says he later learned" of the later correspondence. What's your evidence that Smith said this, and how much later and from whom did he learn of it? As Smith allegedly became a Swedenborgian, he might not be a completely disinterested reporter of the detailed contents of Swedenborg's alleged letter. And the detail matters. Did Swedenborg really name the date of his death at all, or is that a small embellishment to the story, either by Smith or some later teller of the tale?

 

[Zanders]

The fact that Smith converted to Swedenborgianism could mean two things, that witnessing these events was true and powerful enough to convince him, or that these stories are exaggerated due to him converting. If the only accounts of John Wesley being impressed by Swedenborg are reported by him, it doesn't look too reliable. Still, the large amount of comments on him by so many sources certainly does make him a fascinating character.

 

[Apology]

The Cottingley Fairies are much easier to fake knowing the date of your death.

Something else.

http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/articles/Swedenborgs-revelation/odo58.htm

" Toward the end of February, 1772, Wesley was at a meeting with some of his ministers, among whom was the Rev. Samuel Smith. 60 During the meeting a letter arrived for Wesley. He read it; his face registered surprise; he turned and read it to his ministers. As far as Mr. Smith could recall, the contents were as follows:

"Sir-I have been informed in the spiritual world that you have a strong desire to converse with me; I shall be happy to see you if you will favor me with a visit.

"I am, Sir, your humble Servant,

EMANUEL SWEDENBORG"

According to Mr. Smith, Wesley frankly acknowledged his desire to converse with Swedenborg, but said he had never mentioned it to anyone. He was about to leave on a six months' tour of his churches, however, so he wrote Swedenborg, saying he would see him thereafter. Smith says he later learned that Swedenborg wrote back, that the proposed visit would be too late, as he himself would go into the spiritual world the 29th of the next month

So now we know where these stories came from. Whoever Rev. Samuel Smith

http://books.google.com/books?id=jK...w#v=onepage&q=Samuel Smith swedenborg&f=false

This gives more insight in to that event. read that page and a little further down.

So where is the letter, the proof that it was sent prior to Swedenborg's death, and the proof that it wasn't forged and post-dated after his death? At least Sir Arthur Conan Doyle has a picture to mislead him. All you have is a completely unsubstantiated anecdote.

Not everything you read in books is true, you know. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you avoid reading "The Secret" by Rhonda Byrne, before you spend your rent on nonsense because saying "I can't afford that" is a negative affirmation that won't draw in more wealth

 

[Sledge]

Zanders, you say you want a logical explanation, but continue to ignore the most likely explanation: it's all a load of cobblers made up a long time ago. Why is that?