Buzz lightyear and the JREF Challenge

[Belz...]

I don't use helicopters. I use TELEPORTERS. BLACK teleporters. Where the hell have YOU been ?

 

[Paul]

I don't use helicopters. I use TELEPORTERS. BLACK teleporters. Where the hell have YOU been ?

Well, I haven't been telling everyone teleporters exist, which of course they don't.

Certain 'people' definitely won't be using one to visit you later for a friendly chat about your non-disclosure agreement.

 

[buzz lightyear]

I know $1million means nothing to people with paranormal powers, but it means a lot to the rest of us including the JREF. If these people would just come forward and claim their money and donate it to worthy causes of their choice (who despite all their noble intentions might actually need a bit of funding), the JREF would soon be bankrupt and unable to maintain these servers. Then all of us "close-minded skeptics" with no place to meet and share our views (and thoroughly embarrassed by being so wrong) would just dissipate and all the "negative mental energies" we keep beaming to the world would cease and the woos would be free to reach their full potential.

Don't take the money because you want it. Take it to get it away from the JREF and rid the world of our evil.

The world does need an organisation that questions parannormal claims, Hitch.

What it doesn't need is some ridiculous little bespectacled bald dude constantly saying, take the test, take the test, take the test.................

What it does need is an organisation that INVESTIGATES parranormal claims in a thorough an rational manner, without the insults and slanging that good old Jimmy carries on with.

And look, if you guys shut down, how the hell am I going to get my typing practise.

 

[Hitch]

The world does need an organisation that questions parannormal claims, Hitch.

What it doesn't need is some ridiculous little bespectacled bald dude constantly saying, take the test, take the test, take the test.................

What it does need is an organisation that INVESTIGATES parranormal claims in a thorough an rational manner, without the insults and slanging that good old Jimmy carries on with.

And look, if you guys shut down, how the hell am I going to get my typing practise.

I'm sure the JREF would gladly investigate a paranormal claim if there was anything to investigate. As it is all there are is a bunch of crackpots and charlatans delude themselves and others that they have paranormal powers. The JREF says, "So us what you can do so we can investigate it" and they refuse. So the JREF is forced into begging and bribery to get something to investigate. They'll pay a million dollars for someone to demonstrate any paranormal ability without using trickery. So far, no one has brought them anything to investigate. But the million dollars is a pretty strong spotlight and it keeps the frauds running for the shadows to hide.

Whether you like it or not, there are a lot of people asking, "What are they hiding from?"

 

[Tricky]

The world does need an organisation that questions parannormal claims, Hitch.

What it doesn't need is some ridiculous little bespectacled bald dude constantly saying, take the test, take the test, take the test.................

What it does need is an organisation that INVESTIGATES parranormal claims in a thorough an rational manner, without the insults and slanging that good old Jimmy carries on with.

There are organizations that investigate the paranormal. There's even a TV show called Ghosthunters. Problem is, they are far from rational, thorough, or objective. They could win the million if they could prove the existence of a single ghost, plus they would increase their viewership tremendously, but they can't.

Anybody who doesn't like the bespectacled bald dude's way of dealing with the paranormal is free to put up their own challenge. (And frankly, I find it ironic that a proponant of the "Giant Serpent Theory of Landform Generation" has the temerity to call Randi "ridiculous".)

But there is a good reason why rational people don't investigate the paranormal. They have more worthwhile things to do in the real world. No paranormal investigation has ever turned up a single useful thing, unless you count "making money from suckers" as useful.

You might have also heard of the PEAR lab that investigated "anomalies" has closed down. Why do you think that was? Could it be that it was a black hole for money? Nothing ever came out of it. Princeton got tired of paying for being a laughingstock.

And look, if you guys shut down, how the hell am I going to get my typing practise.

You could take a geology course. I'm pretty sure they'd make you write a term paper.

 

[termite37]

wait a second..

Is levitation paranormal or is it just a magic trick? Is magic paranormal???

I dont know why I am asking that, but I am curious.

 

[athon]

wait a second..

Is levitation paranormal or is it just a magic trick? Is magic paranormal???

I dont know why I am asking that, but I am curious.

It depends on what the mechanism is. The observation of something floating contrary to gravity is just that; an observation. If it is caused by some mechanism understood to fit in with current rules of how physics works, then it is science. If it is done with the intention of illusion, through a means which makes it only look as if it is levitating, it is magic (ETA: of the illusion sort, not of the mystical sort). If it is through some means previously undesribed by any phenomena previously observed, then I guess you could call it paranormal. Yet once described, this new mechanism would be integrated with our understanding of the universe and become knowledge of its own accord.

Hence if you really can do something novel that has eluded explanation previously, then it would only contribute to our understanding of how reality functions. It would be a great thing. In truth, there's no such thing really as 'paranormal'. There are the rules of reality, and we observe their consequences. Some observations we attribute causes to which do not fit with current understanding; often, we describe these as paranormal, especially if the speculated causes would require previously tested and supported rules to be wrong in order for it to be correct.

If it is explained through some other means, such as trickery, delusion, or conventional physics, the only person who would benefit from understanding this would be you. However, from your point of view, that would in itself be a pretty good thing.

Athon

 

[Jackalgirl]

wait a second..

Is levitation paranormal or is it just a magic trick? Is magic paranormal???

I dont know why I am asking that, but I am curious.

I think Athon's pretty much nailed it, but just to jump in here:

Magicians, of the James Randi or David Copperfield type, use tricks. That is, they create the illusion of magic. There are a couple of meanings of the word "magic", mind you. In the classic sense -- that is, of, say, rubbing a lamp and having an actual genie come out -- magic is paranormal. But a lot of people nowadays use "magic" to mean "magic tricks" or illusions of the James Randi/David Copperfield type -- in otherwords, talking about clever ways to simulate magic (of the genie-and-lamp type) without actually contradicting the known laws of physics.

So David Copperfield's levitation of the woman over the audience was a trick. How was it done? Dunno. It sounds really cool. But it wasn't magic of the genie-and-lamp variety. THAT kind of magic is what's intensely interesting to us here -- especially in the context of the Million Dollar Challenge -- because if it could be properly tested, it would really expand our knowledge of how physics works.

 

[buzz lightyear]

wait a second..

Is levitation paranormal or is it just a magic trick? Is magic paranormal???

I dont know why I am asking that, but I am curious.

Both athon and Jackal are correct termite37, from their perspective.
I see it slightly different.

For me there are three distinct subjects;

Illusion;
This is the field of Copperfield and Randi, stage performances of slight of hand.
Parranormal;
This is where your "levitation" would be classified. These are abilities beyond the known.
And Magic:
This is the realm of the sorcerer. As the name sorcerer implies, the practioner of this art is in touch with the source. In our case the "source" is the plannet on which we reside.
By understanding the nature of the earths energies and how to manipulate them, a sorcerer can perform feats that would be described as "magic".

 

[GzuzKryzt]

With the fourth subject being:

Meanderambling about alleged powers on an internet forum without ever doing what you claim to be able to do. Or providing valid evidence that it has been done by someone else.

 

[Belz...]

Well, I haven't been telling everyone teleporters exist, which of course they don't.

Certain 'people' definitely won't be using one to visit you later for a friendly chat about your non-disclosure agreement.

I don't think so. The NWO would lose their support from the underworld ? Nope, I can say whatever I want.

Wanna know who killed JFK ?

EVERYONE.

 

[Belz...]

What it doesn't need is some ridiculous little bespectacled bald dude constantly saying, take the test, take the test, take the test.................

It's incredible how much woo-woo folks hate the skeptics' requirement of evidence. You'd almost swear they knoew their claims are bunk.

What it does need is an organisation that INVESTIGATES parranormal claims in a thorough an rational manner, without the insults and slanging that good old Jimmy carries on with.

After a few centuries of investigating such claims and coming up with NOTHING, you'd be cynical, too.

 

[Jackalgirl]

...After a few centuries of investigating such claims and coming up with NOTHING, you'd be cynical, too.

Probably not, more's the pity...

 

[athon]

Illusion;
This is the field of Copperfield and Randi, stage performances of slight of hand.

Ok, as we said. Cool.

Parranormal;
This is where your "levitation" would be classified. These are abilities beyond the known.

Again, more or less what we said. So far, we agree.

And Magic:
This is the realm of the sorcerer. As the name sorcerer implies, the practioner of this art is in touch with the source. In our case the "source" is the plannet on which we reside.
By understanding the nature of the earths energies and how to manipulate them, a sorcerer can perform feats that would be described as "magic".

This is meaningless claptrap. 'Energies' is word you've perverted to mean something different to how it is used elsewhere, intentionally kept as some vague mystical property as that way it doesn't have to be qualified or defined. Should that happen, and you give a precise meaning to this borrowed term, then one could make predictions using it which are demonstrated to be false.

Hiding in a veil of abused language and meaningless terms is why it's called pseudoscience, and why it has never provided us with anything useful in describing our universe or understanding what we observe.

Athon

 

[Belz...]

Probably not, more's the pity...

Wakarimasen, I have to say.

 

[Tricky]

Both athon and Jackal are correct termite37, from their perspective.
I see it slightly different.

For me there are three distinct subjects;

Illusion;
This is the field of Copperfield and Randi, stage performances of slight of hand.

True, and all (honest) stage magicians will admit that what they do is illusion.

Parranormal;
This is where your "levitation" would be classified. These are abilities beyond the known.

There are quite a number of illusions of levitation. The non-illusory kind has never been shown to exist, so you're right, they're beyond the known, since non-existent things are by definition, unknown.

And Magic:
This is the realm of the sorcerer. As the name sorcerer implies, the practioner of this art is in touch with the source. In our case the "source" is the plannet on which we reside.
By understanding the nature of the earths energies and how to manipulate them, a sorcerer can perform feats that would be described as "magic".

Interestingly, Neo-Pagans call their spells "Magick", with a "k" at the end to indicate that they are different from illusion. The problem that their Magick doesn't actually work. If it did, they could win a million dollars easily.

But it doesn't take a sorcerer to manipulate the earth's energies. In fact, every thing you do is a manipulation of "earth's energies". A windmill is a manipulation "earth's energies", as is a compass, a lever, a spring... anything. Of course, a lot of "earth's energy" originated in the sun, but it's here now, so I think it is fair to call fossil fuels "earth's energy" too.

And yes, understanding how these energies work will help you manipulate them. If you were primitive, you might call a lot of what we do today "sorcery", but once you know how it works, it's not sorcery any more. True sorcery would be manipulation of the "earth's energies" in defiance of the way they are know to work, like real levitation would be in defiance of the way gravity is known to work.

What the soi disant sorcerers are saying is that they know something about how the earth's energy works that is unknown and unknowable to science. They fall into two categories, fraudulent and self-deluded (which includes poorly educated).

 

[realpaladin]

... since non-existent things are by definition, unknown...

I understand what you mean, and I concur, but the quote is not semantically correct.

Smurfs are, I most sincerely hope, non-existent, but they are far from unknown.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

It's incredible how much woo-woo folks hate the skeptics' requirement of evidence. You'd almost swear they knoew their claims are bunk.
...

Evidence is to woo-woos what logic is to religion.

(Or what Captain Picard is to Captain Kirk.)

 

[Belz...]

(Or what Captain Picard is to Captain Kirk.)

Sisko's the man.

 

[buzz lightyear]

What the soi disant sorcerers are saying is that they know something about how the earth's energy works that is unknown and unknowable to science. They fall into two categories, fraudulent and self-deluded (which includes poorly educated).

You are pretty quick off the mark to respond to cosmic whaffle posts Tricky, but a bit slow on the geology.
See
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2602822#post2602822



In addition to what I said before, from the lack of moss on the surface, this exposure of the rock looks pretty recent.
Probably a road cut, so exfoliation is unlikely. Also doesnt look like folding.

My guess is that the rock was broken mechanically and the "onion peel" effect is along the original deposition weaknesses.
But as to the circumstances under which it was laid down, .....beats me?

So , learned geologist, pray tell me ........what is the "truth".