Buzz lightyear and the JREF Challenge

[Paul]

what is the "truth".

The 'truth' is that you know nothing, and asking geologists questions you won't understand the answer to so you can ignore them and pretend to be clever does not impress anyone.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Interestingly, Neo-Pagans call their spells "Magick", with a "k" at the end to indicate that they are different from illusion. The problem that their Magick doesn't actually work. If it did, they could win a million dollars easily.

There is a form of "Magick" called "Sympathetic Magick" that works pretty well, IMO. An example: you're going to a job interview, so you cast a spell to keep you calm and give you confidence. You then get the job (well, maybe). It's essentially a psychological form of the placebo effect, an attitude adjustment or form of mental preparation. Definitely not of the actual measurable physical effect variety, tho.

 

[Tricky]

You are pretty quick off the mark to respond to cosmic whaffle posts Tricky, but a bit slow on the geology.
See
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2602822#post2602822

[URL="http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_14323464b780339f67.jpg"]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_14323464b780339f67.jpg[/URL]

In addition to what I said before, from the lack of moss on the surface, this exposure of the rock looks pretty recent.
Probably a road cut, so exfoliation is unlikely. Also doesnt look like folding.

No, not a road cut. It is stream cut. But I get the impression that this outcrop has been studied recently by geology classes, as I can see their hammer-marks.

But yes, it's plain old exfoliation. This is in a chain of mountains that is extremely ancient and used to be much taller. The rocks you are seeing were buried hundreds to thousands of feet deeper than they are now, and the resulting decompression causes spalting or exfoliation near surface outcrops and in areas where burial is fairly shallow.

But as to the circumstances under which it was laid down, .....beats me?

So , learned geologist, pray tell me ........what is the "truth".

Deposited in what is called the Carboniferous period, these hills are laced with coal seams. The seams are very predictable because the coal swamps occurred as sea level dropped and rose in somewhat regular cycles. The limestone, sandstone, shale, coal sequence is very consistant in this area. Giant tree fern fossils are also common. Most of the coal in the world was formed in this period when tree ferns were the predominant kind of land vegetation.

However, if you want legend, this particular outcrop is at an overlook called "Lover's Leap" where story has it that two young Native Americans threw themselves from a poetically pleasing height because Shakespeare wanted to stage Romeo and Juliet in Verona rather than Virginia.

 

[Tricky]

There is a form of "Magick" called "Sympathetic Magick" that works pretty well, IMO. An example: you're going to a job interview, so you cast a spell to keep you calm and give you confidence. You then get the job (well, maybe). It's essentially a psychological form of the placebo effect, an attitude adjustment or form of mental preparation. Definitely not of the actual measurable physical effect variety, tho.

LOL. Yeah, I agree that such things work. Tarot cards work too, if all you are doing is trying to sort out your own thoughts. I often meditate when I'm preparing for a stressful venture, like a job interview or a presentation before a large audience.

So yeah, some of what Neo-Pagans call "Magick" is not really paranormal, but just well-understood psychological techniques. However, when they claim to be able to use their magick to change the weather, I have to call BS.

 

[Tricky]

I havn't see the ladybug cactus, Tricky, but you yankee boys have probably got better drugs than us . I have heard that mescal is wicked.

No, there were no drugs involved, but I saw it nevertheless. Why, I can even show it to you, just to give you an example of something you have not yet perceived, even though it is completely real.

 

[Jackalgirl]

LOL. Yeah, I agree that such things work. Tarot cards work too, if all you are doing is trying to sort out your own thoughts. I often meditate when I'm preparing for a stressful venture, like a job interview or a presentation before a large audience.

So yeah, some of what Neo-Pagans call "Magick" is not really paranormal, but just well-understood psychological techniques. However, when they claim to be able to use their magick to change the weather, I have to call BS.

Agreed. : )

 

[buzz lightyear]

There is a form of "Magick" called "Sympathetic Magick" that works pretty well, IMO. An example: you're going to a job interview, so you cast a spell to keep you calm and give you confidence. You then get the job (well, maybe). It's essentially a psychological form of the placebo effect, an attitude adjustment or form of mental preparation. Definitely not of the actual measurable physical effect variety, tho.

I am interested to know the nature of your ritual, Jackalgirl.
Because if it is sympatheic magic, you are doing something that man has been doing since pre history. And does today, in every church and synagogue.

As for the "measurable physical effect", it is everything after the ritual.
Your mental state and the job interview are both affected by what you did.
The only reason that you cannot measure anything is because there is nothing to compare the result with. If you hadn't performed the ritual, things may have been very different, but you don't know.

Immagine if you understood how to do this type of "magic" and believed in its powers, how much more effective it would be.
But you still could not measure its effect, as what you created would be what is.

 

[Tricky]

Immagine if you understood how to do this type of "magic" and believed in its powers, how much more effective it would be.

Yeah, but it could backfire. You could become so relaxed and confident that you don't even try because of your certainty that everything will be all right. I can't remember where I heard the phrase or the exact wording, but some author once described it as, "The total certainty that can only be achieved by the truly insane." You don't want the spell to work that well.

But you still could not measure its effect, as what you created would be what is.

If there is an observable effect, then it can be measured, if only statistically, sort of like they have done those studies on the effects of prayer upon healing.

 

[buzz lightyear]

Yeah, but it could backfire. You could become so relaxed and confident that you don't even try because of your certainty that everything will be all right.

Actually Tricky, if you believe that there is more to this world than just the known, the opposite happens, you become more focused and responsible.
Have you heard of "the butterfly effect", this is where the flapping of the wings of a butterfly in the Amazon is the start of a storm in the Atlantic.
So it is in the world of the world of the occult.

From the perspective of a occult practioner, the world is seen like a set of Russian dolls. A series of nested realities starting at the densest, the mineral, and progressing out through the organic, to the finest, the spirit world.
Each reality can perceive the one below, but only limited understanding of the one above.

If we call on the spirit world for assistance in our world, we know that it can only be for the highest good, as money, power, lust and possesions are of no value in that world. The only things of interest there, are love, honour and courage.

Without these principles, you can pray, cast spells and do whatever, but noone is listening.

So the ruffle of the butterflys wings is "belief" and the storm that occurs, is the way you live your life.

 

[Tricky]

Actually Tricky, if you believe that there is more to this world than just the known, the opposite happens, you become more focused and responsible.

Have you heard of "the butterfly effect", this is where the flapping of the wings of a butterfly in the Amazon is the start of a storm in the Atlantic.

You're referring to chaos theory and the way you seem to understand it is just exactly the opposite of what it means.

The "butterfly theory" essentially states that minor events may have outcomes that are not only unpredicted, but unpredictable. While I'm all in favor of being focused and responsible, that helps controls that are predictable and responsive to your input. Butterfly flappings are not.

So it is in the world of the world of the occult.

Of course, you can believe just about anything about the "world of the occult". Since no such "world" has ever been shown to exist, you are free to give it whatever characteristics you choose. That's the great thing about fiction.

So it is in the world of the world of the occult.

From the perspective of a occult practioner, the world is seen like a set of Russian dolls. A series of nested realities starting at the densest, the mineral, and progressing out through the organic, to the finest, the spirit world.
Each reality can perceive the one below, but only limited understanding of the one above.

That's an interesting but flawed metaphor. In reality, the relationships are not so easily contained in successive "shells". They are a network, not a series of progressively simpler shells. With your model, something that happened inside of one of the innermost "dolls" would have little effect on the outermost doll, being completely contained by many other layers, yet we know this is not the case. Something happening at the subatomic "layer" could vastly affect the whole world. A nuclear explosion, for example.

No, Buzz, that is an absolutely wretched metaphor.

If we call on the spirit world for assistance in our world, we know that it can only be for the highest good, as money, power, lust and possesions are of no value in that world. The only things of interest there, are love, honour and courage.

Really? In my examination of the world, good is a purely human concept. The "spirit of the world" doesn't care if you live or die or if your species lives or dies. In fact, it doesn't care at all. It seems that you have invented some anthropomorphic being that mirrors your own concept of morality. Maybe that helps you keep from having bad dreams at night, thinking the world is concerned with the "highest good". Reality can be scary.

Did the "spirit of the world" not love dinosaurs? Does it think of honor when it sends cowbirds to destroy the eggs in another bird's nest so it can replace them with its own? What part of a jackal is courageous?

Don't be so anthropocentric.

Without these principles, you can pray, cast spells and do whatever, but noone is listening.

This is contradictory to what you just said. Are you even sure yourself what you believe?

So the ruffle of the butterflys wings is "belief" and the storm that occurs, is the way you live your life.

Nope. That metaphor doesn't work either. It could be argued that your "beliefs" and "the way you live your life" are exactly the same thing. Even if not, they are intertwined complexly, not a simple cause-and-effect relationship.

You write good poetry, Buzz, but your logic needs a bit of work. But that's okay. The world needs poetry.

 

[buzz lightyear]

,

Really? In my examination of the world, good is a purely human concept. The "spirit of the world" doesn't care if you live or die or if your species lives or dies. In fact, it doesn't care at all. It seems that you have invented some anthropomorphic being that mirrors your own concept of morality. Maybe that helps you keep from having bad dreams at night, thinking the world is concerned with the "highest good". Reality can be scary.

Did the "spirit of the world" not love dinosaurs? Does it think of honor when it sends cowbirds to destroy the eggs in another bird's nest so it can replace them with its own? What part of a jackal is courageous?

You write good poetry, Buzz, but your logic needs a bit of work. But that's okay. The world needs poetry.

Nowhere in my post did I did I use the word "good" Tricky.

What I spoke of was "love, honour and courage".
These are the three aspects of humanity that have permitted us to survive in a hostile environment.
It is love of a mother, via her nurturing, that allows an underveloped infant to survive.
It is the honour of her partner who provides for her through this period that keeps her alive.
And it is the courage in his heart that gives him the power to defend her against the world, that makes all this possible.

And the "great spirit" does care, Tricky, we are her finest greation. She has created us, with our massive minds, so that one day her creation may eventually understand and know her.
She does not judge the cowbird or the jackal, because they survive with what they are.
But because we have the capacity to create our own reality, she does judge us. If we don't choose "love ,honour and courage" as our benchmarks, them the fate of the dinasours awaits us.

 

[Tricky]

Nowhere in my post did I did I use the word "good" Tricky.

LOL. Yes you did. Look back

"... that it can only be for the highest good..."

(emphasis mine)

This just confirms my suspicion that you don't even know what you're typing. And don't try to claim "highest good" doesn't use the word "good".

What I spoke of was "love, honour and courage".
These are the three aspects of humanity that have permitted us to survive in a hostile environment.

Yeah, those three are nice, but they are far from the only aspects that have helped us to survive. Intelligence is real high on the list. The opposable thumb and upright stance are pretty good aspects too. Is it "honorable" for humans to breed animals for the express purpose of slaughtering them without mercy? Get serious. We do it to eat. To heck with honor.

It is love of a mother, via her nurturing, that allows an underveloped infant to survive.

Sometimes, although a wet nurse can do the same thing, or a man with milk formula. But of course, many creatures nurture their young. I would hardly call this a defining aspect of humanity.

It is the honour of her partner who provides for her through this period that keeps her alive.

Again, sometime, sometimes not. Single mothers often do a superb job of raising children.

And it is the courage in his heart that gives him the power to defend her against the world, that makes all this possible.

Bullhockey. Some fathers are courageous, some are not. If you think that stringing noble-sounding words together is making a point for you, then you are on the wrong boards. You are spouting poetic glurge.

And the "great spirit" does care, Tricky, we are her finest greation.

My aren't you the egotist. Humans haven't been on this earth a fraction as long as the most successful species. But about your version of God, which you call the "great spirit", I say the same thing as I do to people who believe in other versions of God. "Show me".

She has created us, with our massive minds, so that one day her creation may eventually understand and know her.

Or maybe She is a creation of your own hallucinogen-enhanced "massive mind". Considering that the only evidence you seem to have for Her is your own unsupported claims, I find that scenario much more likely.

She does not judge the cowbird or the jackal, because they survive with what they are.

So do we, Buzz, so do we.

But because we have the capacity to create our own reality, she does judge us. If we don't choose "love ,honour and courage" as our benchmarks, them the fate of the dinasours awaits us.

You can manipulate reality. You can't create it. You probably can't even give a non-subjective definition of "love", "honour" or "courage".

And we will be lucky if we suffer the fate of the dinosaurs. They survived for more than 150 million years and their descendants (birds) are still with us. Hominids have been here for only about 6 million. Maybe we'll make it, maybe we won't, but if we do it (without regressing to a less mentally acute species) then it will be because we find out how the world works so we can live within the boundaries of our habitat. It will not come because of religion or crackpot ideas of how the world works.

 

[buzz lightyear]

LOL. Yes you did. Look back (emphasis mine)

This just confirms my suspicion that you don't even know what you're typing. And don't try to claim "highest good" doesn't use the word "good".

Yeah, those three are nice, but they are far from the only aspects that have helped us to survive. Intelligence is real high on the list. The opposable thumb and upright stance are pretty good aspects too. Is it "honorable" for humans to breed animals for the express purpose of slaughtering them without mercy? Get serious. We do it to eat. To heck with honor.


Sometimes, although a wet nurse can do the same thing, or a man with milk formula. But of course, many creatures nurture their young. I would hardly call this a defining aspect of humanity.


Again, sometime, sometimes not. Single mothers often do a superb job of raising children.


Bullhockey. Some fathers are courageous, some are not. If you think that stringing noble-sounding words together is making a point for you, then you are on the wrong boards. You are spouting poetic glurge.


My aren't you the egotist. Humans haven't been on this earth a fraction as long as the most successful species. But about your version of God, which you call the "great spirit", I say the same thing as I do to people who believe in other versions of God. "Show me".


Or maybe She is a creation of your own hallucinogen-enhanced "massive mind". Considering that the only evidence you seem to have for Her is your own unsupported claims, I find that scenario much more likely.


So do we, Buzz, so do we.


You can manipulate reality. You can't create it. You probably can't even give a non-subjective definition of "love", "honour" or "courage".

And we will be lucky if we suffer the fate of the dinosaurs. They survived for more than 150 million years and their descendants (birds) are still with us. Hominids have been here for only about 6 million. Maybe we'll make it, maybe we won't, but if we do it (without regressing to a less mentally acute species) then it will be because we find out how the world works so we can live within the boundaries of our habitat. It will not come because of religion or crackpot ideas of how the world works.

If you lock rats in a cage, eventually the natural order will break down and mayhem and disorder will be the norm. This is how humans have become, but like the rats, it in not the true nature of the species.

Put a pack on you back and walk in the boonies by yourself for a week or two. Then stand in a howling gale on a far flung peak and see what matters to you, see what is in your heart. My guess it will be a bucket of poetic glurge.

P.S I don't eat dead creatures.

 

[Aepervius]

Muahahaha (evil laugh)

I cannot help myself commenting

You do not eat dead creature, hu ? So.... i guess you also pay attention to all the additive , fat, and other stuff like that, like chocleine (spelling), the red additive in many syrup or juice.

You also never eat ANY sort of dough or preparation made from flour. Because, hey, in flour there are a lot of dead creature. But maybe you are limiting yourself to what is cute (or insect somehow don't count) ?

Beside eating , how about wearing ? Do you have ANY leather shoe ? So I see, you wear only plastic or sport shoe . How about music (sheep guts) ? You must really really pay attention every second of your life. Must be hell.

Unless in reality you only pay attention not to eat steaks and that is it. Which is kind of hypocryte and ignore all other source of animal/insect raw stuff.

Enough mocking.

As for taking a back pack and going in the mountain & forest,was there did that for a 2 week holidays, and I prefer the cage of the modern life convenience to the live in the free.

 

[Little 10 Toes]

If you lock rats in a cage, eventually the natural order will break down and mayhem and disorder will be the norm. This is how humans have become, but like the rats, it in not the true nature of the species.

Put a pack on you back and walk in the boonies by yourself for a week or two. Then stand in a howling gale on a far flung peak and see what matters to you, see what is in your heart. My guess it will be a bucket of poetic glurge.

P.S I don't eat dead creatures.

Well, we lock humans in a cage and we get to see that natural order does not break down. The strong still prey upon the week.

And if I am out in the boonies while standing in a howling gale, I'll be thinking, "What the [Rule 8] am I doing here, where's the [Rule 8] shelter!"

And if the great spirit didn't want us to eat creatures, why did he make them so yummy?

 

[Oualawouzou]

Put a pack on you back and walk in the boonies by yourself for a week or two. Then stand in a howling gale on a far flung peak and see what matters to you, see what is in your heart. My guess it will be a bucket of poetic glurge.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[Correa Neto]

...snip...Put a pack on you back and walk in the boonies by yourself for a week or two. Then stand in a howling gale on a far flung peak and see what matters to you, see what is in your heart. My guess it will be a bucket of poetic glurge.

P.S I don't eat dead creatures.

Meh, did it so many times before I just lost the count... Despite it all I never saw any sign of dragons, any paranormal stuff, etc.

Whats in my heart in those occasions? Usually I'm glad I brought my gear, created with good materialistic technology, so I'm relatively safe and confortable while eating my meal of dead creatures and enjoying nature's show.

 

[Tricky]

If you lock rats in a cage, eventually the natural order will break down and mayhem and disorder will be the norm. This is how humans have become, but like the rats, it in not the true nature of the species.

Are you insane? Rats are one of the easiest of animals to keep. Their social order works just fine in cages, not that this has anything whasoever to do with the topic.

Put a pack on you back and walk in the boonies by yourself for a week or two. Then stand in a howling gale on a far flung peak and see what matters to you, see what is in your heart. My guess it will be a bucket of poetic glurge.

Hey, I like poetry. I write poetry. But it is not a good tool for defining reality. Metaphors, by their nature, are not real.

Oh yeah, and I've done both of those things, metaphorically speaking. Again, though, this has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

P.S I don't eat dead creatures.

P.S. Yes you do. Plants are creatures too.

 

[buzz lightyear]

Are you insane? Rats are one of the easiest of animals to keep. Their social order works just fine in cages, not that this has anything whasoever to do with the topic.

Rats in cages has everything to do with this topic Tricky.

Back in the 60s a dude named John Calhoun did some experiments with overcrowding and rats. It seemed that stress levels associated with overcrowding leads to an excess of cortisol in their brains.

The same happens in humans.
See: Thttp://intelegen.com/nutrients/stress_cortisol.htm
This can lead to Cushing's syndrome.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushing%27s_syndrome

Now, I had long wondered why skeptics tended to be overweight and angry. Or why overweight and angry people were skeptics.
It seems that stress is the answer.
If you read the linked pages you will see that the hypothalmus is heavily involved in the cortisol equation. So my bet is, that since this little sucker is the gateway for preception to the brain, you uptight stressed out characters have a limited field of perception.

And if you have a close look at this pic you will not see too many skinny tanned outdoor types. They are mostly pasty overweight desk jockeys.



So Tricky, if you quit the desk job, run off with the secretary, become a vego, and get a job in the boonies , who knows what might happen.

You might even get an audience with the "great spirit".

 

[Tricky]

Rats in cages has everything to do with this topic Tricky.

Back in the 60s a dude named John Calhoun did some experiments with overcrowding and rats. It seemed that stress levels associated with overcrowding leads to an excess of cortisol in their brains.

The same happens in humans.
See: Thttp://intelegen.com/nutrients/stress_cortisol.htm
This can lead to Cushing's syndrome.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushing%27s_syndrome

But you see, you changed subjects. Previously you were only talking about rats in cages. Now you're talking about overcrowding. Certainly I'm aware of what population stress can do to creatures, both human and otherwise. But simply living in a cage is not what causes it. Yet again, I cannot see what this has do do with any topic you were talking about previously. Population stress has nothing to do with love or honor or courage.

And if you have a close look at this pic you will not see too many skinny tanned outdoor types. They are mostly pasty overweight desk jockeys.

Sounds to me like you are making judgments based on appearances (and only your perception of appearances at that). There is a word for that sort of judgment. It is called "bigotry". I'll prefer an openminded, pasty, overweight desk jockey any day over a tanned, skinny bigot. YMMV.

So Tricky, if you quit the desk job, run off with the secretary, become a vego, and get a job in the boonies , who knows what might happen.

You might even get an audience with the "great spirit".

I don't think that will happen. I am happily married and I have a job I like a lot. It feels good being responsible. You should try it.