And even if all that were false, Chamberlain was at least trying to avert the disaster with his mistakes. Corbyn is making a disaster more likely and there is no gain for that in sight.
McHrozni
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And even if all that were false, Chamberlain was at least trying to avert the disaster with his mistakes. Corbyn is making a disaster more likely and there is no gain for that in sight.
McHrozni
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Corbyn is not making anything more likely. He is a complete irrelevance since he has no power to influence anything at all. It is the Tories and Theresa May that you need to worry about.
The thing is that he shoudn't be. A competent leader of the opposition would have held May's feet to the fire at every opportunity, forced her to make her case and offered an alternative to Brexit, or her flavour of Brexit that was sufficiently enticing that May would be worried about the narrowness of her majority.
Instead, he's backed her to the hilt regarding Brexit itself and now is trying to negotiate terms when the time is long-past.
Exactly. He's acting as a token minister to represent the Tory remain voters who are gullible enough to fall for a ploy this transparent, not her political opponent. Come 2020, Labour will face an electorate without being the opposition party they claim to be, but a party that caucused with the government at the crucial juncture for the country. They will get all the blame for all that will go wrong and receive no credit for anything that might have gone right.
That's how you play the part of the Trojan horse, not the opposition party. Labour will be hamstrung by his incompetence for years to come. It would deserve to be replaced by a different opposition party, truth to be told.
McHrozni
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Can you give me three examples of where a competent leader of the opposition has done this while the government had a majority on a matter?
I mean May is ignoring Sturgeon in the face of Scotland declaring its independence. What did Corbyn have to bring to the party? The threat of a nasty write-up in the Socialist Worker?
Social Care
In the Times on Saturday (behind a paywall), it mentions British elderly living in the EU. They people currently receive health care helped by the UK, as we are in the EU. However, after Brexit, this will likely change, and could be left to pick up the tab themselves. As a result, the UK could see an influx of elderly Brits returning, expecting social care/health care.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-warned-social-care-crisis-could-exacerbate/
It is unlikely they will be forced to leave, but if the funding stops, it is likely they will return in large numbers.
Meanwhile, we have EU citizens working in social care & NHS, who are returning home, and will likely leave in greater numbers soon. Poland has a growing economy, and so many Poles will likely just return home.
Soooooo, we will face a huge increase in care costs, not least because:
This double whammy is yet another cost of Brexit.
In the Times on Saturday (behind a paywall), it mentions British elderly living in the EU. They people currently receive health care helped by the UK, as we are in the EU. However, after Brexit, this will likely change, and could be left to pick up the tab themselves. As a result, the UK could see an influx of elderly Brits returning, expecting social care/health care.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-warned-social-care-crisis-could-exacerbate/
It is unlikely they will be forced to leave, but if the funding stops, it is likely they will return in large numbers.
Meanwhile, we have EU citizens working in social care & NHS, who are returning home, and will likely leave in greater numbers soon. Poland has a growing economy, and so many Poles will likely just return home.
Soooooo, we will face a huge increase in care costs, not least because:
This double whammy is yet another cost of Brexit.
Nicola Strugeon is a good first example. So are the Irish Republicans.
How about the threat of a mobilized, angry voter base? Theresa May can only work her 'magic' if she faces little opposition. Two million people marching in London against a hard Brexit, courtesy of Corbyn, would give her a pause.
If not, if she would steamroll the Brexit despite strong and credible opposition, her party would face a painful election come 2020. Presumably her career ambitions don't end with Brexit and even if by some miracle they do, her party would still like to continue shaping British politics beyond Brexit. That would either force her into concessions to Bremainers or she would be replaced by someone saner or Tories would be hammered in 2020 and the next 2-3 elections easily. Whichever they chose, Labour ends up winning.
Facing a fight he couldn't lose, Corbyn conceded immediately. You don't get any more incompetent than that.
McHrozni
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...and if three are requested then five will be demanded no doubt
John Smith and Tony Blair made life very hard for Major.
Then again if you're of a Conservative bent, Thatcher no doubt did a great job during the "winter of discontent".
Sturgeon is, IMO, doing a good job as a leader of an opposing party. She has a clear set of policies which align to both the will and the interests of the people the party represents.
Corbyn has nothing to bring to the party - a good leader of the opposition OTOH could make life much more difficult for May.
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...and if three are requested then five will be demanded no doubt
Well that's a pretty unfair response, no?
I don't remember the details of Major to be honest. My lasting impression is that the issue was that he had internal party difficulties. But correct me if I am wrong.
Well I'm not of a Conservative bent in the least. Which is why I think we should be pointing the finger at Theresa May and the Tories rather than trying to dump the blame on Corbyn.
I agree but she also is having precisely zero impact on the Tories in terms of their policy decisions. And that is the point I am making. The Tories can do what they like with impunity. Corbyn is making it worse to pretty much exactly the same extent as Sturgeon is making it better. None.
He/She could score a few points in debates for sure. But as for actually having a meaningful impact on the policy I think you are over-estimating the potential.
Nobody is dumping any blame on Traitor, he deserves every bit he receives. Yes, Theresa May and her band of marry Brexiteers are steering the country into the abyss. That does not excuse Traitor helping them find their way, rather than doing his best to avoid the abyss.
Sometimes the point of the fight is not to win the actual fight but rather to make the enemy lose far more than they gain with it. Theresa, by the virtue of her arrogance and incompetence, is doing Sturgeons' bidding in regards to Scottish independence. She is sowing the seeds of discontent which may bloom into the full blown independence Sturgeon wants. The fact Theresa wins out when it comes to shaping the policy is no victory, and it is no defeat for Sturgeon either. I doubt Theresa sees this, but I think this is the core principle of Sturgeons' strategy: lose the fight for Brexit, but fight it tooth and nail to secure the popular support and votes she needs to secure Scottish independence. Even if she were to lose that fight it still all but guarantees her party will dominate Scottish elections for years to come. Theresa may be completely blindsided as she steamrolls Brexit onward, as if it were something necessary and good for UK.
It's not like Sturgeon is losing political capital, votes or credibility as she takes on Westminster alone. She's gaining it in the only constituency that matters, the ones that will vote for her in the next election. SNP stands to win big from Brexit, irrespective of what happens. The worse Brexit is for Scotland the more SNP will gain, and even if it were, by some miracle, good for Scotland, she will still be able to claim credit that she bullied Westminster into concessions that benefited Scotland or something - and not without merit, I might add. It's a fight Sturgeon can't lose and Theresa can't win.
This is what happens when strategists clash with tacticians. Tacticians could win all the battles, but strategists will win the war in the end. Theresa is no strategist and her tactics only work because Tory party embraced the Führerprinzip to the fullest before she came to power.
McHrozni
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But that's the point.
The opposition has to push their position, which allows for cracks in the government benches to appear.
The idea is to hold the government to account. To not let them drive the narrative.
Corbyn is useless at that...and it's part and parcel of his job.
Ao, yes, May should be held responsible herself, but do not underestimate the need for a capable and active opposition.
In a sense Traitor is in no small part directly responsible for Theresa doing what she does. The only reason why she is able to drive the narrative of a diamond-hard Brexit is because there are so few opposing voices and because there is no one to represent Bremainers and moderate Leavers.
She has no motive to act in a different way.
McHrozni
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None of this supports the idea that he is making it worse though. Merely that he is filing to get the maximum political capital from it. It also largely ignores the fact that the SNP are pro Europe and pro immigration and preaching to the choir while Labour are not and the man himself has been completely undermined to the point where him supporting Brexit probably does it more harm than good.
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She can drive that because it's the only coherent position that addresses the concern of English voters to reduce immigration. A position that both Tory and labour held before Corbyn was in charge. This is the natural culmination of traitor Milliband's anti immigration push.
He is making it worse because he removes any incentive from the government to act with moderation. There is no one that could win the elections, therefore they're free to do as they please.
McHrozni
Did I miss something? Was there a referendum that ordered the Westminster to reduce immigration? When? What were the results?
McHrozni
Realism is kicking in among Leavers.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/26/news/economy/brexit-economy-pessimism/index.html
"Pessimism has now spread to all age groups and income brackets," said Chris Williamson, chief business economist at IHS Markit. "The most marked turnaround is evident among the poorest paid, who have switched from being the most optimistic to now being the most downbeat."
Rather than keeping up the "Brexit will be good for UK" charade, Brexiters should begin to rationalize it in other ways - "Yes, we shall suffer economically, but we will gain in other ways", then explain what those ways are.
Ceptimus, you're up.
McHrozni
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/26/news/economy/brexit-economy-pessimism/index.html
"Pessimism has now spread to all age groups and income brackets," said Chris Williamson, chief business economist at IHS Markit. "The most marked turnaround is evident among the poorest paid, who have switched from being the most optimistic to now being the most downbeat."
Rather than keeping up the "Brexit will be good for UK" charade, Brexiters should begin to rationalize it in other ways - "Yes, we shall suffer economically, but we will gain in other ways", then explain what those ways are.
Ceptimus, you're up.
McHrozni
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It certainly seems that way.
The over-riding concern of leave voters was to reduce immigration to the UK.
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/research...op-issue-for-voters-in-the-EU-referendum.aspx
Minor thread derail, I realise, but that was the exact reason why Roskilde Festival (Danish equivalent to Glastonbury) decided to put up a stall dedicated to selling nothing but fried sandwiches with horse meat (in Danish it's called a cowboy toast, think of it as a croque monsieur with minced meat filling instead).
The name? "Eat Horse - Of Course". For an added bonus, the staff were all dressed in jockey outfits
Apparently the reaction was entirely favourable, to the point they had to bring extra supplies of horse meat to cope with demand.
abaddon
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Technically, that is not the issue. Vegans feel the same squeamishness about pig, sheep or cow.
The actual issue is about labelling horse meat as beef and intentionally avoiding quality controls in the food chain.
The squeamishness comes after, and that is cultural. My kids had that reaction even though, as I pointed out, it's on the menu in many countries as a normal item. I think this is because of the romanticisation of equines as cute. We have "My Little Pony" but we don't have "My Little Bovine/Chicken/Porker/whatever". Black Beauty is a classic example.
I once brought my two girls on holidays to a country house. There were five bedrooms and just the three of us. Naturally, I bagged the master bedroom, but I let them choose whichever they wanted. They chose to share the smallest bedroom, leaving three vacant rooms. Why? Because outside the window was a pasture with a white mare and her foal.
Triumph of marketing, I guess.
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