Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[Mad Hom]

Mad Hom stupidly wrote:

"Stupidly"...wow good form there Yeti Sweat...good form indeed

No, "Bigfoot Nation" does NOT need to prove anything...to anybody.

Sweat....this just in...you are not at a Bigfoot Nation confab over at Meldrum's Bar and Grille...you kicked down the door of a Skeptic hangout....claiming the PGF is real...that it couldn't possibly be a suit...and that Bigfeetsus live in every stretch of tall trees from Issaquah (sp?) to Poughkeepsie....that kind of demands that you bring a little something to the table.

If you need proof of Bigfoot's existence....it's your problem....pure and simple.

If we need proof it's our problem?!?!?...Wow...I'm not even going to comment on that statement. Letting it stand alone for what it is speaks volumes.

I joined a Bigfoot Forum to analyse and weigh the evidence for Bigfoot......NOT to prove that Bigfoot exists. If the evidence does, at some point, rise to the level of proof....I'll be pleased....but it doesn't need to.

Bigfoot evidence has been weighed and measured.....and unfortunately found wanting Sweatman...all you have....is a 40 year old film...that's pretty much it...theres not really much else to analyze.

Footprints can be faked..even the amazing,spectacular MTB,stories can be made up,noises can be described that were never really heard or mistaken for something else,arse prints can be divined from a hole in the mud,hair can be called unknown,films can be hoaxed....why bother analyzing much further than that? Bigfoot Nation needs something concrete for science to poke and prod...if not Bigfeetsus is no more real than the Tooth Fairy or the Great Pumpkin.

Maybe Bigfoot exists, and maybe it doesn't......either way, I'll survive, quite happily. I don't NEED proof that it does exist.

I guess that's the difference between Skeptics and Tru Bleevers... in order for Skeptics to to roll up 6th level Bigfeetsus Clerics with a +2 Field Cam and a bag of unlimited plaster to join all the RPG hijinx...they require something more...oh you know...something along the lines of proof.

If playing intrepid Bigfoot researcher is what you consider fun and productive than by all means knock yourself out Sweatster....as for me I'd like it proven to be whatever it is...either an actual living breathing creature...or a huge pile of Bull Scheize...either way...only proof will do.

WHY do you say "Bigfoot proponents NEED TO PROVE IT or shut-up"???

Mostly because you are the ones making the extraordinary claim Sweaty...and the fact that you are having a hard time with that is perplexing.

Secondarily (sp?) because Bigfoot Nation tends to act as if they are Bigfeetsuses special chosen people...and all us scofftics/skeptics are to stupid to see that obviously Bigfeetsus exist. Many of you CLAIM to have seen one or seen a trackway or heard a spooky scream in the night and over at the Bigfoot Think Tank forum many of you carry on as if the creature has been proven and categorized already...when in fact nothing could be further from the truth..which chaps my hide...so I join in the discussion every once and again...to add my two cents...and if that involves angering you...than all the better.

Personally, I think that members who have NOTHING to contribute are the ones who should SHUT-UP.

Contribute what Sweat Man? Their are plenty of sharp knives in this drawer... Kit,LTC,Diogenes,Parcher,Huntsman,Tube,RayG..and they are doing a swell job making a mockery of Bigfeetsus evidence...I have a job that does not allow me interweb access and by the time I get home and log on...they have already chewed on the evidence and spit it out...I have come up with many things...many questions...many "hey wait a minutes"...but I usually am a page or two behind...so what would be the point I'd be repeating what has already been said...so I add what I can..try to entertain...and at all times I plead for Bigfoot Nation to provide some proof of their imaginary friend who is everywhere but nowhere at all....mostly because I'm intrigued by the skull that Bleev's even in the face of insurmountable contradiction...call it morbid fascination I guess.

You ask us to buy into Bigfeetsus on what has been brought forth to this point...all of which is useless...so Sweat...when and if The Bigfoot Nation brings something more to the table..I'll be fascinated,amazed and heartily dining on crow....until than though I toss the question right backatcha...

Who should just SHUT UP??

 

[Melissa]

People may be looking and who knows, eventually find bones of Gigantopithecus in Thailand and India, but their climate and vegetation are very different from North America. Findings in Northern China would certainly be a better support.

I would be interested in hearing about the similarities in climate between this portion of Southern China and North America during the Pleistocene Era (when Giganto was thought to exist).

But what if Gigantopithecus we bipedal? Given the evidences we have so far I think its too much of a stretch. But again, I may be wrong. And when I look in to the various descriptions and renderings of bigfeet...

Question, is it possible to distinguish whether Giganto was bipedal based soley on a mandible and teeth?

 

[William Parcher]

Well I am guessing it would. As I do not "believe" anything, and keep saying that - but because I entertain the possibility I am being told I am fringe. LMAO.

You do believe things and that's why it's strange to hear you say otherwise. You believe that the possibility of Bigfoot is worth entertaining, and it is worth establishing a hobbyist intrigue around this belief. You say you are on a fence and remain neutral, but your actions and arguments are those of an advocate for existence. You are told you are "fringe" because you appear to advocate and defend various evidences that are proposed to represent Bigfoot.

Since about a year or so ago, many Bigfooters decided to actively try to distance themselves from the the designation of "believer". They say they don't believe in Bigfoot per se, and instead just follow where the evidence leads. As if to say that the sum total of presented evidence (or parts) compels any rational person to automatically arrive at a predisposition for existence. They never consciously choose to believe, but instead the evidence itself flips switches inside their brains pointing towards "The animal exists", and this thing called belief has nothing to do with it.

But there is no escape from belief and believing. At the minimum, the advocates must believe that at least some of the evidence is not hoaxed or misidentified. The fence-sitter does not automatically arrive on the fence because they don't have any beliefs. It is their established beliefs that put them on the fence, so to speak.

 

[Melissa]

So, now your talents extend to Psychic abilities WP?

Dont quit your day job as a jerk Your much better at that.

 

[William Parcher]

Here is one frame comparison that WP might find amusing thou I doubt he will be surprised. Forgive me if you posted this one William, you pulled the pic before I actually saw it.

Yeah, that is now even more obviously some wood debris. There is no footprint there at all. I wonder if Davis or Luminous will retract the claim that this shows a Patty track right after she made it.

 

[drapier]

So, now your talents extend to Psychic abilities WP?

Dont [sic] quit your day job as a jerk Your [sic] much better at that.

Classy!

 

[Melissa]

Thank you Drapier - I figured if I spoke in a language that seems to be understood, my point would be made much faster.

Funny how you remark at rude comments toward your fellow skeptics - but when its someone with an opposing opinion those nasty remarks seem to be ok.

Hypocrites. Learn how to have a debate.

 

[William Parcher]

The Grinch That Stole Bigfoot

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I would be interested in hearing about the similarities in climate between this portion of Southern China and North America during the Pleistocene Era (when Giganto was thought to exist).
....................

Google doesn't work for you ? It comes in handy when one is a researcher..

Does ' Ice Age ' mean anything to you ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene#Glacial_features

I Don't think the glaciers made it to southern China during the Pleistocene ..

 

[LTC8K6]

Do we also start from the position that bigfoot, the one that supposedly inhabits the PNW, does/can not exist?

I don't think you've narrowed it down enough!

If we go with a Patty-esque bigfoot, I would say you start from that position, then modify it as evidence for it that you accept comes to you.

This does not allow you to invent evidence, though. Or to call things evidence that really aren't.

As an individual, you are of course free to do nearly whatever you wish, but you are not free to expect others to accept...

 

[Melissa]

Ahh, but you didnt answer his question LTC.

 

[drapier]

So, now your talents extend to Psychic abilities WP?

Dont quit your day job as a jerk Your much better at that.

Congratulations, Melissa! After an exhaustive 30 second search I've determined that in the two-year history of this thread you are the first to call another poster a "jerk." I expect more of the same in the future. Keep up the good work.

 

[LTC8K6]

Ahh, but you didnt answer his question LTC.

I'm certain I answered both of them, and my own opinion is good enough for me!

 

[Melissa]

Hey thanks Drapier Glad I could help out in the long line of firsts for this topic, on this forum. It truly is an honor.

Seriously, if you think the attitude here is conducive to any serious discussion of the actual issue - well, I feel sorry for you. In less than 4 pages of this very thread I have seen more people assume they know me right down to my personality - hell Im surprised no one has offered fashion tips they know I will love.

Every so often I do manage to have a intellectual exchange with someone here - but more times than not I am insulted and treated like a freak.

Now, tell me why I should be nice to people who are clearly not even so much as decent toward me? I think I have shown, when treated with a little bit of decency - I can be a very nice person, but just like you all - I tire of the BS and random uneducated attacks that would make a 5th grader proud.

I thought this forum could handle serious discussion - maybe its only a select few. My bad

 

[Melissa]

NVM. Not even worth it.

 

[LTC8K6]

Now, tell me why I should be nice to people who are clearly not even so much as decent toward me?

Who hasn't been "so much as decent" toward you?

Could you stop these generalizations, please?

I'll answer your question anyway.

You should always stay on the high road. It always works out better if you don't take the low road. Treating people decently, even if you perceive that they have treated you poorly, always works out for the best in the long run.

Look at just about any board anywhere. The most respected posters are the ones who keep their cool and don't resort to low tactics.

 

[drapier]

Hey thanks Drapier Glad I could help out in the long line of firsts for this topic, on this forum. It truly is an honor.

... - hell Im [sic] surprised no one has offered fashion tips they know I will love.

I wouldn't be so presumptuous. After all I have no idea if you are an "autumn" or a "spring."
"

I thought this forum could handle serious discussion - maybe its [sic] only a select few. My bad

That's the trouble with skeptics. They actually question the evidence they are presented with. Oh, well.

 

[RayG]

Inevitably perhaps, the sullen opponents plod towards each other, the arena reverberating with cheers, chants, and the thud of stomping feet. The noise level builds steadily as the antagonists close to only arms-length distance. The crowd noise becomes a deafening roar as they stand nearly eye-to-eye, foreheads scant inches apart. Slowly one of the combatants raises his head and, with the force of a category 5 hurricane, unleashes a torrent of abuse about the head and shoulders of his stunned victim.

"Poopy-pants!" he screams

"Momma's boy!" he bellows

"You sanctimonious sack of doggie-doo!" he shrieks as the audience sits in both mortified horror and eager anticipation of further abuse.

His target, rocked by the vile invective, stumbles and falls to one knee.

Seeing his opponent weakened, he senses the opportunity to end this quickly.

"Intellectual infant!" he blathers, as spittle drips from his lips.

"Sorry son of a...

er... hmm... ahem... sorry, got off track.

Right. Never mind, back to your umm... debate.

RayG

 

[Correa Neto]

I would be interested in hearing about the similarities in climate between this portion of Southern China and North America during the Pleistocene Era (when Giganto was thought to exist).

A bit short of time here to do the propper link-digging this requires for a detailed discussion (I would -and need- to see such data including for other purposes). I could only make a quick googling (the most promissing links require subscriptions). From the results, I selected these two links:

Fig. 1 at
http://palaeoworks.anu.edu.au/pubs/Hopeetal04.pdf
shows reconstructions of vegetation at Asia 40Ky ago

Scrolling down at
http://earth.usc.edu/~geol150/evolution/pleistocene.html
you'll see a reconstruction of North America's vegetation 18Ky ago.

I would like to point two issues:
1. You have a dataset from 40Ky ago and another from 18 Ky bp; since the Pleistocene was characterized by several climate fluctuations, expect doing nothing but obtaining some generalized impressions.
2. Both maps I linked to are from a time when Gigantopithecus, as far as we know, were gone. A propper and good evaluation would require comparing reconstruction maps for each cycle since the oldest fossil remains of Gigantopithecus. Note that the more you go back in time the more you'll loose "resolution".

This put, I must say its not just a matter Southern Asia and North America having or not similar vegetation and climate zones at one or more points sometime durint the Pleistocene. Its also a matter of the different climate and vegetation zones our hipothetical giant apes would have to cross to reach North America. These animals would have to be adaptable enough to, from the forests they originally inhabited, expand their range across tundra, steppe, temperate semidesert and dry grassland to reach the distribution inferred by sighting reports in North America.

Call me a brick head, but I have serious problems imagining that...

Question, is it possible to distinguish whether Giganto was bipedal based soley on a mandible and teeth?

I may be wrong, but I guess a definitive answer would require some other bones. Things like the the base of a skull, the upper two vertebrae (axis and atlas) or femurs or hip bones. Note that the "only a mandible" reasoning also leaves open space for this interpretation that loks like a mix between a gorilla, a baboon and a bear:

Who knows? Bipedal, knuckle-walkers or quadrupedal?

Analogies with other primates are what allow guys who studied the remains, such as Ciochon, to say they were knuckle-walkers. I'll choose their side of the fence untill better evidence is presented...

 

[Melissa]

I wouldn't be so presumptuous. After all I have no idea if you are an "autumn" or a "spring."

Humm, all depends on my mood. But, I do like Pink - but my favorite is Red Everything a woman does is a good excuse for shopping

That's the trouble with skeptics. They actually question the evidence they are presented with. Oh, well.

Thats fine and dandy, but those who call themselves skeptics do not have the market on what is and is not the truth, and neither do the Bigfoot Researchers - but if we are going to learn from one another, there needs to be a middle ground. Otherwise, what role are we all playing - we are not helping each other thats for sure. I also tend to drown out obnxious folks. I get enough attitude during my 9-5 thank you.

I suppose I wont waist your time by saying I am very skeptical and critical of all evidence presented to me.. lmao.