Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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He says that the comparison images I posted are meaningless because the subject's arms are at different points in the arm swing...and that distorts the apparant length of the arm. And, therefore, we can't really tell that Bob's arm is shorter than Patty's arm.

I said all that? I don't think so.

Well of course Bob's arm is shorter than Patty's arm.
How in the world could it not be?

I would be surprised if Bob, or anyone, put on a sasquatch suit and still appeared to have the same arm length. So would Sweaty.

The odd thing is that Sweaty is aware of this, and yet he goes on making comparisons that he knows are invalid.
 
Sure....their analysis is top-notch science. ;) (Actually, it's total garbage.)

I'll take a good close look at LTC's "analysis" as soon as I can.....but in the meantime.....what do you think of it?
He says that the comparison images I posted are meaningless because the subject's arms are at different points in the arm swing...and that distorts the apparant length of the arm. And, therefore, we can't really tell that Bob's arm is shorter than Patty's arm.

Do you agree with his analysis, Mad Hom?

You say they're doing a SWELL job of making a mockery of the evidence.
Are they doing that with good scientific analysis.....or stupidity??


I'm not asking you, or anyone else, to "buy into" anything. I couldn't care less what you or any other skeptic on this board thinks, or believes.
I don't care if you're fascinated...amazed...bored...drunk...or dazed.
All I've said in regards to you....is that your "contribution" to the analysis of the evidence is NONexistent.
Your input to the discussion amounts to nothing more than a brain-dead parroting of the same old question...."where's the proof?" :rolleyes:

You know what, Mad Man....when and if a Bigfoot body is brought in, you'll hear about it on your local news...you don't need to keep ranting on and on and on about "proof" like a pea-brained nutjob. :boggled:

Until such time (if ever) that there is proof....people who take an interest in the evidence for Bigfoot will continue to analyse it as carefully and as thoroughly as possible, in an attempt to determine it's true weight....while you, and other skeptics, continue to post your meaningless, pointless, mindless babble.

BTW....when have I asked you, or anyone to "buy into" any of the analysis that I've posted here??

Sweaty...you and every other swinging Bigfoot Fan who has ever come here are basically analyzing minutia (sp?) Take Luminous over there with his crappy out of focus shot of what could be a feetprint or it could be wood debris,hell it could be whatever the beholder wants it to be.

Same thing goes for the subject of the CMF...could be Patty,a really for real in the flesh Bigfeetsus or it could be Bob H in a silly suit...depends on whose eyes are beholding it really.

Bigfoot Nation analyzes potholes in the mudd,they analyze Bison hair, they analyze feetprints...they record bumps in the night and analyze them...they analyze snapped tree limbs etc etc etc etc....the only thing you guys haven't analyzed is an actual specimen of a really for really Bigfeetsus...and it's been at least 40-50 years.

See Sweat that's the problem....it's been a long long time...and still you guys are analyzing the minutia...the traces of what could have been a Hairy Biped of Unusual Size...it's feetprints...it's buttprints...stories of it's tomfoolery in the woods...all of these things could have been and in many cases probably were...hoaxed,mistaken,made the F up...so to call me nonplussed by exactly what it is that's being analzyed...would be an understatement writ large.

The possibility of hoax always looms large with Bigfeetsus simply because your pet Bleef happens to be bipedal. People are also bipedal Sweat and people know where to procure silly suits and they know how to put them on.

We are not talking about a Moa here or a Tazmanian Wolf or a Cave Bear....all of which would be difficult to fake based on these creatures body structure....Bigfoot Nation would have us Bleev that a hairy upright creature couldn't possibly be a schmoe in a suit and that Sweaty is pretty much where the whole phenomenon jumps the shark in my mind.

We know people exist and we know silly hairy suits exist....what we have no idea of is whether Hairy Bipeds of Unusal Size exist...so the default position is schmoe in a silly suit until proven otherwise.

Also I'd add that since the CMF was filmed 40 years have passed and still it remains exhibit A in Bigfoot Nation's case for the existence of Hairy North American Bipedal Ape Men. Nothing found,filmed or flim flammed since has come anywhere near it...that Sweat is a huge red flag...you'd think that you'd have something else worth looking into other than this moldy old flick...but alas Bigfoot Nation has bupkis....go figger.
 
WOW - Correa Neto, that is excellent. Give me some time to read the links you posted and I will reply. Thank you so very much.

I often wonder about the "land bridge" idea myself.
Thanks, but I really don't think its excellent...

Note that the 18Ka reconstruction would be from the Late Wisconsian while the 40Ka is from the Middle/Early Wisconsian. Giagantopithecus, as far was we know, lived between 200Ka and 6.3Ma ago. I will not bother you and the other readers with further names and divisions (they can be found at http://www.quaternary.stratigraphy.org.uk/correlation/POSTERSTRAT_v2007b.pdf or at Wikipedia'a entry on Pleistocene); I must however, remind that they belong to different glacial cycles.

So, just to referesh everyone's memory:
This put, I must say its not just a matter Southern Asia and North America having or not similar vegetation and climate zones at one or more points sometime durint the Pleistocene. Its also a matter of the different climate and vegetation zones our hipothetical giant apes would have to cross to reach North America. These animals would have to be adaptable enough to, from the forests they originally inhabited, expand their range across tundra, steppe, temperate semidesert and dry grassland to reach the distribution inferred by sighting reports in North America.
It was not just "crossing the land bridge"... . You can check The Evolution of Cats; July 2007; Scientific American Magazine; by Stephen J. O'Brien and Warren E. Johnson to have an idea of what would actually be needed.
 
No, Melissa.

Not mad.

Frustrated and disappointed, yes. Because, instead of actual argument or debate, I get another Footie who doesn't understand logical argument and can't argue actual points I'm making.

*shrug*

My entire argument is that Bigfoot research, as it's being done today, is NOT scientific research. The comparison to the IBW search is unfounded, a false analogy. You wanted to twist that into several of these side issues that I said nothing about (such as whether the IBW actually exists or how you spend your own money).

Again, if you don't wish to actually debate the points I'm making, no one is forcing you. If you don't understand the point I'm making, then simply say so and I'll wait for someone who can. I was actually hoping for something a bit more rational.
 
Two comments on issues that were recently raised and I think apply to many issues other than bigfeet.

1. Default position.
When a claim is initially presented, it must be "Lets check it!". If the claim was already examined, then the "default position" becomes "true", "false", "most likely false", "I have no idea", etc. The default position must (almost) always be subject to reevaluations and eventually changes. Of course, different people may reach different conclusions and different default positions after studying the same dataset. This is perfectly acceptable in many cases. In bigfoot's case, I think most skeptics here will agree that currently the default position is "not real" but few would say "impossible".

I know the movie sucked, but the quote fits nicely in some cases...
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. Come back when you're worthy.
The evidence has been weighed, the evidence has been measured, and the evidence has been found wanting. Come back when you have better evidence.

2. Money.
Individuals and private organizations are free (at least to a certain point) to do whatever they want with their money. Dive at the Caribbean, donate the money to a church, buy a plasma TV or spend a week searching for Bigfoot somewhere. Its up to each person to decide what would be the better option to spend the money according to his/hers own goals and needs.

Private organizations are at a different situation. Their game is: make a good decision and you make money; make a bad move and you loose money and eventually go bankrupt. If a company decides it’s a good move to put money on Bigfoot research or at a quest to find alien life, well… In most cases, there’s little if any reasons to bother about this- its’ their problem as long as they are not being dishonest. But, if I own shares of this company, I would like to know the reasons and the expected profits. In the event of finding the move unwise in financial, technical and scientific terms and/or unethical, I would start selling my shares or, if possible, try to block such a decision.

Organizations that belong to the sate are another game, since they use our tax money. I hate to see my tax money being wasted down the drain by politicians. Ideally, the state should only fund projects whose technical, scientific and economic aspects are viable and have no ethical issues. Unfortunately, that’s not a common sight, but I digress… Tax money for medical research? Yes. Tax money to sponsor homeopathic treatments? No. Tax money for wildlife research? Yes. Tax money for a cryptozoological research? With the currently available evidence, no. Of course, democratic states are supposed to question citizens about what to do with their tax money. If they decide something I do not agree with, well…
 
BigFoot.gif


The Link is http://www.overman.info/OverGifs/BigFoot.gif for anyone who needs it!
 
Ooops, just found this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6958313.stm

Bigfoot remains, fossil or not, where they are?
Acidic soil PH something, something... coastal raised sea level ice age something, something... PNW ecology, I tell you!

In Iowa they get destroyed by farm equipment. In Florida old people find them and put them on the coffee table next to the seashells. In Louisiana they find them and chuck them in the gumbo. ...
 
Funniest tidbit:

No one at Cryptomundo (at least untill the time I checked) noticed the April 1st "detail"...
 
Acidic soil PH something, something... coastal raised sea level ice age something, something... PNW ecology, I tell you!

In Iowa they get destroyed by farm equipment. In Florida old people find them and put them on the coffee table next to the seashells. In Louisiana they find them and chuck them in the gumbo. ...
OK, but what about Canada?
 
Another interesting comparison

Here is a pic of BobH in the suit that Morris made (that is Morris to his left) and note that it looks pretty bulky on him. Compare this with the McClarin comparison photo at the film site. It would not be unreasonable to say that the difference in size is from a bulky suit and that the subject in the film could be a guy in a suit.
 

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What Davis and Loomy believe is a footprint is actually a shadow of wood debris cast onto the sand. You can see what appears to be a small uprooted tree (or branch) laying horizontally and angled towards the camera. This tree is elevated above the sand. Near the end (closest to the camera) there appears to be a mass (partial root ball?) that is casting a dark shadow almost directly below itself. This shadow on the surface of the sand, is what is believed to be an impression in the sand itself. It's just an optical illusion created when you disregard the shadows created by the wood.

thum_826446ca18fc395ab.jpg
 
Bob Heironimus is back on the XZone radio show tonight. It's at midnight EST and 11pm CST. Kal Korff will also be on (this guy seems to be a nutcase), and also another unnamed "special guest". I don't know why they would choose not to give this person's name in advance. BH skeptics can again call in and cross-examine Bob on live radio.

The "X" Zone Radio Show
 
There is an interesting parallel between the error of Davis and Luminous (the above still frame) by declaring a shadow to be a Patty footprint and the errors of others in Bigfootery.

1) Declared Bigfoot dermal ridges are an erroneous interpretation of casting artifacts.

2) A declared Bigfoot heel and buttprint in mud is an erroneous interpretation of an elk lay.

3) A declared Bigfoot caught on film is an erroneous interpretation of a man in a costume.

4) A declared Bigfoot mid-tarsal break is an erroneous interpretation of a photographed and cast footprint.

5) A declared filmed Bigfoot making a visible footprint is an erroneous interpretation of the shadow of some wood debris.

These are all misinterpretations or misidentifications of things that are right in front of our eyes. These things are often positively proposed and advocated as secondary evidence for Bigfoot. They do not stand up to trumping the alternative hypotheses. If these things were submitted scientific theses (they could be), they would have serious trouble at the stage of peer review. The scientist author would be forced to explain how the alternatives could not possibly account for the proposed interpretion of the evidence. If any of these were presented as theses in a scientific publication arena they would have a difficult time advancing beyond peer review.
 
What Davis and Loomy believe is a footprint is actually a shadow of wood debris cast onto the sand. You can see what appears to be a small uprooted tree (or branch) laying horizontally and angled towards the camera. This tree is elevated above the sand. Near the end (closest to the camera) there appears to be a mass (partial root ball?) that is casting a dark shadow almost directly below itself. This shadow on the surface of the sand, is what is believed to be an impression in the sand itself. It's just an optical illusion created when you disregard the shadows created by the wood.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_826446ca18fc395ab.jpg[/qimg]

What you believe is simply shadow, shows up as a possible track in the sand, next to a piece of wood. It shows up best in the clipped piece of footage, not the more distant shot that you are showing. View this imprint in the cropped footage and you will see it more clearly.
 
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