Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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I'm still trying to keep up Matt. I'm working long hours right now. The square heel, in my opinion is the result of slow shutter speed and movement of the foot during the exposure. Patterson's camera was running at the lower limit of being able to freeze action. Some movements were quick enough that they smeared. This is a known phenomenon and does not bode for or against authenticity, in my opinion. Here is a photo taken with too slow a shutter speed. Notice that the dog's head has smeared, however the eye remains properly shaped. This is called " burn in". All kinds of odd things happen with film during lengthy exposures. M.K.
Meaningless unless you quantify ' lengthy '..

What was the shutter speed of the picture you are showing us; and how does it compare to the range of speed we may be seeing in the film..

Regardless; ' burn in ' will not improve the physical resolution limit of the emulsion.
 
I'm still trying to keep up Matt. I'm working long hours right now. The square heel, in my opinion is the result of slow shutter speed and movement of the foot during the exposure. Patterson's camera was running at the lower limit of being able to freeze action. Some movements were quick enough that they smeared. This is a known phenomenon and does not bode for or against authenticity, in my opinion. Here is a photo taken with too slow a shutter speed. Notice that the dog's head has smeared, however the eye remains properly shaped. This is called " burn in". All kinds of odd things happen with film during lengthy exposures. M.K.

OK, that makes sense. This is called "motion blur" correct? Since the foot is moving more quickly that the rest of the body it blurs more, correct?
 
The slow shutter speed would account for some of the bluriness...

It would if it did, but it mostly didn't. The PGF is only blurry when Patterson was moving the camera. Many still images from the PGF are not really blurry at all.

...but you would expect almost every frame to be blurred since the subject is in motion throughout the film.

Only some frames are blurry... when Patterson was moving the camera. Much of the footage seems to reveal that Patterson held the camera quite steady.

Along with the fact that the camera rarely comes close to anything you could call stable, what we have is a pretty crappy piece of film.

The camera is stable for many "critical moments". It was certainly stable for frame 352 and other famous still images taken from the film.
 
OK, that makes sense. This is called "motion blur" correct? Since the foot is moving more quickly that the rest of the body it blurs more, correct?

Fine, except that in the "Paddlefoot" and "Blockfoot" still images, the foot really isn't blurry at all.
 
bigfoot-lg.jpg


I don't think that this Bigfoot costume has been replicated by professionals or amateurs. Is this because it cannot be replicated, nobody is really interested in replicating it, or what?
 
If a dog had a square ***..............

What do you base your opinion regarding suitbuilding on?

Are you prepared to say that, since a stuntman employed in the motion picture industry today can possibly build a suit that might come close to replicating the PG film, that the rodeo rider did it 40 years before?

And you, too, are scientific and not prejudiced?

Dfoot has promised to put his suit in motion and film it. I've refrained from judgement until he has a chance to do so. I suggest you do likewise.

Otherwise, you are pre-judging.

Prejudice.

I based my opinion on that having read (and actually paid attention to) Dfoots first post about how he created that mask.

I qualified my statement because I didn't take the time to go back and find that post. I figured most people reading this thread and caring anything about the subject would remember it.

I did not take into consideration the narrow-minded woos who can't be bothered to read what's put in front of them because they simply want to argue whether they have a leg to stand on or not.
 
Matt, I am enjoying the BFF thread on the "Minnesota Iceman". I understand that you did work in a carnival(s). My sister is a carny. You have used the term mark, but I don't think you've defined it yet on BFF. Some folks might not know what it means.

I have always been fascinated with carnival culture. Sis tells me that "mark" is a general term, but that her show specifically uses the term "town mark". Did you ever hear that one? It seems redundant to me, but vernacular never has to truly be grammatically-economical. Most marks in the midway are going to be coming from the town that the show is visiting anyway.

"Giant Sumatran Rats"?! Hell yes, I'll pay a dollar to look at some nutrias. The local zoo charges $12 for admission and they don't even display these critters.
 
If a dog had a square ***..............

What do you base your opinion regarding suitbuilding on?

Are you prepared to say that, since a stuntman employed in the motion picture industry today can possibly build a suit that might come close to replicating the PG film, that the rodeo rider did it 40 years before?

And you, too, are scientific and not prejudiced?

Dfoot has promised to put his suit in motion and film it. I've refrained from judgement until he has a chance to do so. I suggest you do likewise.

Otherwise, you are pre-judging.

Prejudice.

Huntser

I want to make sure I am following this discussion correctly, if I read the previous posts right Diogenes thought the image Dfoot posted was a mask made from the sixties, he then realized it was an IMAGE created by Dfoot and not a ready made mask and then he politely admitted he had jumped to conclusions both here and at BFF. Then Hitch correctly stated that Dfoot had put together two sixties era masks to make the Patty Suit he built (a tor johnson mask and a chimp mask). If I am incorrect in my understaning of what was said hopefully someone can correct me.

I am confused by your contention that it is somehow prejudiced and unscientific to think Dfoots work calls into question the validity of the P&G film. What he has accomplished is to seriously undermine two of the major tenets bigfoot advocates claim. (1) No one has ever come close to replicating the suit. (2) Materials where not available to patterson during the late 1960's. I am unaware of "putting the suit in motion" ever being one of Dfoot original goals, he seems to have stated "look what I have discovered and how I did it" I am not sure why anyone has to refrain from judgement, he built a suit it looks pretty damn good he explained how he made it using 1960s materials.

and exactly what would a dog do if he had square ***.?

Rick
 
Matt, I am enjoying the BFF thread on the "Minnesota Iceman". I understand that you did work in a carnival(s). My sister is a carny. You have used the term mark, but I don't think you've defined it yet on BFF. Some folks might not know what it means.

I have always been fascinated with carnival culture. Sis tells me that "mark" is a general term, but that her show specifically uses the term "town mark". Did you ever hear that one? It seems redundant to me, but vernacular never has to truly be grammatically-economical. Most marks in the midway are going to be coming from the town that the show is visiting anyway.

"Giant Sumatran Rats"?! Hell yes, I'll pay a dollar to look at some nutrias. The local zoo charges $12 for admission and they don't even display these critters.

I was a sideshow performer, not a carny. I was one of the founding members of the Jim Rose sideshow, which started in Seattle in the early 1990's. A book about our adventures by Jan Gregor is entitled Circus of the Scars.

"Mark" is old time carny slang for an unsophisticated customer. Our audience was more of the "modern primitive" type.

I've seen Bobby Reynolds' "100 pound rat" exhibit in Coney Island, it was actually a 100 pound capybara.

After reading Greg Long's book, I see many similarities between Jim Rose and Roger Patterson...
 
I was a sideshow performer, not a carny. I was one of the founding members of the Jim Rose sideshow, which started in Seattle in the early 1990's.

Ah, so that's where 'tube' came from. :D

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rose_Circus
Matt "The Tube" Crowley, whose moniker came from the seven feet of tubing that he would swallow. The other end of the tube was attached to a crude hand pump. Rose himself would fill the pump with a variety of fluids and proceed to pump it into Crowley's stomach, then back out again. Audience members were invited onstage to drink the vile concoction after it had been extricated from Crowley. He would also provide a demonstration of sheer lung power by blowing up a hot water balloon with his mouth until it burst.

RayG
 
Do you compare this to the subject in the Patterson film?

Marx was seen buying furs; presumably he made the suit, or he and his wife did.

Not all the photos are Marx' but here's a review of his "documentary":

http://www.bijoucafe.com/goods/bijou_store1vcd_L.htm

(Check out what happens when you click on the photos.)

"Back in Vancouver Rene kept his finger on the Bossburg pulse through regular telephone contact with Ivan Marx. And it seemed that every time he called, Marx had found something; a handprint here, a footprint there, signs of an unusually heavy creature bedding down in the bush; always something to keep the trail warm.

Marx phoned him one evening that October (1970) and said, "I've got a film of the cripple." The hows and wherefores of the filming were reported in the Colville Statesman Examiner under the byline of Denny Striker, late of the Metlow pursuit:

On the night of Oct. 6 an unidentified person called the Marx home, leaving a vague message that either a car or a train had struck a large upright creature on the highway about seven miles north of Bossburg. Marx was away at the time but when he received the message ... he left immediately for the area with a hunting dog he hoped would follow the spoor of the Sasquatch, if indeed that was what it actually was.

Marx was armed with nothing more than a Bolex 16mm movie camera with a 17mm lense, a 35 mm Nikon and a two-way radio with which he had contact with rancher Don Byington, who was in the area by the time Marx's dog had located the creature.

The day was heavily overcast with smoke ... when Marx jumped the creature in the bottom of a dense draw and began filming. The initial footage shows a large black upright figure moving stealthily but rapidly through the dense growth, but only in silhouette.

Marx pressed the pursuit with his hound, forcing the Sasquatch into a clearing where, with his movie camera set at f2.8 he took the remarkably clear footage of an impressive looking creature. On the screen the Sasquatch is shown moving from right to left at an angle of about forty-five degrees away from the photographer. Distance from the subject according to Marx ranged from twenty-five feet to more than a hundred feet as it made its way into the heavy underbrush on the far side of the clearing.

Probably the most impressive part of the film, besides its extreme clarity, is the fact that the Sasquatch is visibly injured, holding its right arm tightly to its chest and using its long muscular left arm for compensating balance. Also, both ankles of the creature seem badly skinned, the wounds showing plainly raw against the black hair of the legs and feet.

In watching the frames singly, the injured or skinned area appears to extend onto the bottom of one foot, and possibly on both feet, which would account for the apparent pain-filled movements of the frightened creature. As the Sasquatch is nearing the far side of the clearing, a twisted tree limb is stepped on, bouncing up and striking it above knee level. Marx, the following day, photographed this stick, which was ten feet long. In comparison the creature photographed would have stood about nine feet tall and Marx estimated its weight as that of two large bears, or around seven to eight hundred pounds.

The only thing the film is lacking is a facial feature on the creature. Twice while crossing the clearing the Sasquatch turned its head to glare at Marx. The first time it turned 180 degrees and uttered a weird scream, which was heard by Byington, positioned on a ridge nearby. The second time it turned a full 360 degrees, appearing quite confused, but the lack of light prevented any facial features from showing plainly ....

Marx said he continued pursuit of the creature until darkness prevented further advance, and when the trail was recovered the following day, it led through a maze of rugged terrain and finally to a body of water where it was lost. He feels the Sasquatch is very old and apparently hurt quite badly.

Striker finished the story with a statement from René who had arrived in Bossburg: "Ivan has a movie and that leaves only two choices. Either it is real or it is not. That's what I'm here to find out."
The story had been released to the wire services and the second siege of Bossburg was under way. Dickie Davis was right back in the fray, tossing offers around for the film, author Ivan Sanderson phoned on behalf of Argosy Magazine, and the usual crowd of Sasquatch devotees was there.

Tom Page flew in dangling before Marx a cheque for $25,000, for the film or a copy of it. He made the proposition possibly out of desperation, in light of his earlier experiences at Bossburg-that Marx could have the cheque if he would confirm or deny the authenticity of the film. Whether he would have honored the offer if Marx had said the film was faked is a moot but nonetheless intriguing question. The fact that Marx declined that offer should have loaned immediately to the film at least a touch of uncertainty.

Most of the hunters were saying for publication that Marx had the genuine article. René conceded reluctantly that such might be the case, more from a desire to believe Marx's wife, whom he respected and liked and who was confirming her husband's story, than from conviction. John Green arrived and wasted no time in declaring the film authentic. He offered Marx eight hundred dollars for a copy, of which action Rene reflects dryly, "I guess he wanted two Sasquatch films." (The other one being the Patterson film.) Green was moved to write a tribute to Marx for the pages of the Bigfoot Bulletin, a mimeographed publication sent out intermittently from a base in Oakland, California. Part of it read: "I am satisfied...that he could not have faked all he has to show, and that the film is genuine."

Don Byington, the rancher who had been within walkie-talkie distance of Marx when the film was shot, had two young children, and these youngsters, from the time the film was first shown, were heard to murmur that they knew well the location of the filming (Marx had kept the spot secret). No one paid them any heed. The film stayed in limbo and the winter marched on. Still Marx had taken no offer for his film, had released no part of it for publication in any medium.

Then on the scene came Peter Byrne, a British adventurer and hunter who had been part of the Tom Slick sponsored expeditions in the Himalayas and in northern California. Byrne still had a source of financing and he and Marx came to an arrangement: Marx would be paid a monthly retainer as a Sasquatch hunter of $750, and his film would be placed in a bank safety-deposit box as security. This arrangement carried through to the spring of 1971, Marx being comfortably subsidized to pursue his hunting while at the same time having to make no commitments about the film. But Peter Byrne was considerably less gullible than might have seemed. The Byington children kept harping, as kids will, about how they knew exactly where the film had been shot, and Byrne listened to them. The children led the hunters to a spot at the back of the Byington property immediately recognizable as the film site.

In the film the creature brushes its head against a tree limb. The limb was located and was found to be less than six feet from the ground, shaking Marx's estimate of nine feet for the creature's height. And a comparative film indicated that certain features on the Marx film could not have appeared as they did if he had filmed from the spot he said he had filmed from and with the equipment he said he had used. It was then established, through Peter Byrne's persistent probing, that Marx's camera on the day of the filming was equipped with a telephoto lense and not, as he had said, a regular one. And finally it was discovered that shortly before the film was taken Marx had been buying a considerable quantity of fur pieces in Spokane. The case fell apart, Marx by this time having left the area. The unkindest cut came for Peter Byrne when he went to the bank to inspect his security and found only a roll of black, exposed celluloid.

Later Marx claimed to the others that he had taken and passed a lie detector test over the incident and had passed it, but no one ever knew where or when this had occurred. René's response to the claim is a cryptic: "I'm sure he could take one any time and pass it with flying colors."

There was a sequel to Marx's fling at cinematography in the fall of 1972. On Saturday Oct. 21 he appeared on "You Asked For It," a U.S. television show that pursues odd and interesting items at the request of its entranced audience. This time Marx was both the requestee and one of the subjects. He appeared with the show's host, clutching a sealed can of movie film of a creature he said he had photographed during a snow storm in northern California. Marx's never-ending search for the truth had once more culminated in his seeing a Sasquatch, this time a white one. He had followed it through the deepening snow until he realized he could predict its route and, as he quaintly put it, "head it off at the pass." This he did, having enough time to set up his camera, tripod and all, before the thing lurched into view. The TV host then explained that Marx had brought the film straight from the camera, unprocessed, and that the show's producer would print the film under the strictest of supervision and would then examine it. Following a commercial break we were flashed ahead in time to where the film had been processed, and we saw the subject. It was marvelously clear, and outrageous. A primate expert whom the TV people had co-opted for an opinion said it best: "I think it's a man in a beast's suit." It certainly was someone in a beast's suit. Great folds of the suit swung around like an old army blanket amid the California snows as the thing cavorted before the camera, now running comically towards it, now turning about and gallivanting off through the drifts, flipping its clumsy feet backwards and sideways as one does when running through deep snow in an overcoat. It seemed almost to be chuckling as it went. Whether Marx was the perpetrator or the victim of a hoax in this case will likely remain unanswered. But there was little doubt that what we were watching was a snow job in a blizzard.

So the crippled footprints of 1969 had set in motion a chain of events that went full circle and arrived at nothing, while the prints themselves were, for the time being, virtually forgotten. The events had undoubtedly placed under a cloud the search for the Sasquatch and those few who, like René, remained seriously and honestly devoted to it."

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/bossburg.htm
 
Fine, except that in the "Paddlefoot" and "Blockfoot" still images, the foot really isn't blurry at all.

I think it's been mentioned a few times the substrate was clayey sand. She was by the stream at first. The feet may have been wet and sand stuck to them.
 
There is the possibility that if they do prove bigfoot exists, they know their game is also over, because real science will take over at that point.

Pursuit after a recent close encounter could lead you to where they live, it could lead you to scat, it could lead you to actual hairs from the creature, etc.

It could force the beastie to make a mistake in your favor. Maybe you would force it into an area it wouldn't normally visit. Perhaps it would be forced into contact with other people who would also witness it and corroborate your story of the pursuit.

The fact that the evidence you gathered was from a pursuit would give it more weight than evidence you just happened to stumble across in the woods. Even the tracks would have more weight as evidence.

Assuming you actually saw what you believed to be a bigfoot and tracked it and came up with evidence during the tracking. I would give such evidence greater weight.

Could someone please remind Bill that hair was found in the imprint and scat and possible prints were found in the area? With no clue about which way the animal went, exactly where would one start looking for more hair, scat and possible prints? Why would hair scat and possible prints have more weight if found in a fruitless pursuit? Are we certain no one searched the area looking for more evidence?
 
(Check out what happens when you click on the photos.)

Ummm... nothing? Which photos do you mean?

So the crippled footprints of 1969 had set in motion a chain of events that went full circle and arrived at nothing...

Exactly what I quoted a dozen posts or so ago.

The only link of interest that I hadn't seen before was this one, though the information it contains is certainly not new:

http://www.internationalbigfootsociety.com/html/news.php

RayG
 
So again I say that anything that has the stink of these hoaxers anywhere near it, should be thrown out.

How can anyone who is serious about bigfoot have anything to do with these folks? How can they have anything to do with any "evidence" that they are associated with? How could Krantz and Meldrum have anything to do with such "evidence"?

I just can't understand it.

There is no way science is going to accept such evidence, and it should not.

I repeat, it should not.

Bossburg cripple foot, Walla Walla half foot, etc., are worthless to science.
 
Could someone please remind Bill that hair was found in the imprint and scat and possible prints were found in the area?

LAL, I can only assume you're talking about the Skookum cast. Here's a couple of those 'possible prints' found in the area.

LogPrint.jpg

17-inch Impression in Log found by Rick Noll. NOTE: Noll's bootprint is visible to the left of the impression. Photo by Rick Noll.

LoggingRoadPrint.jpg

Possible print found on logging road near screams.Photo by Rick Noll.

As I said over here on the BFF:

No mention on the BFRO website of clearly identifiable squatch prints/tracks.

"Upon reaching the top of the hill, the group discussed the tracks. It was the general concensus that they were inconclusive, but definitely interesting."

Wednesday, September 20th: "...three potential Sasquatch tracks in different areas."

Thursday, September 21st: "No definitive tracks were found..."

Friday, September 22nd: Skookum cast found sometime near 0900am, but no discernable footprints. "The marks it did leave are much less distinct than footprints...."

Saturday, September 23rd: "No fresh tracks of large wildlife present..."

Your assertion that "Richard Noll found tracks on day four that were 24 -36 hours old."
http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/dayfour.asp

seems to be wishful-thinking on your part. Five different people (Noll, Randles, Fish, Lemley, and Lee) looked at the tracks. Their consensus? Inconclusive.

Bottom line - no clear footprints were ever found, and no sighting occurred.

With no clue about which way the animal went, exactly where would one start looking for more hair, scat and possible prints? Why would hair scat and possible prints have more weight if found in a fruitless pursuit? Are we certain no one searched the area looking for more evidence?

Basically, the entire expedition came to a screeching halt so they could cast the buttprint, which amounted to even less evidence than a clear footprint. After casting the squatchbutt and returning it to camp, this is the action the expedition took:

http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/dayseven.htm
After returning to camp, Randles, Fish and Noll decided to head out for Hood River again to obtain a car battery for Noll. The rest of the group remained at camp, discussing the day's discovery. Randles, Fish and Noll returned at around 11 PM. Some more fruit and peanuts were placed at the mud wallow, in an attempt to obtain more track evidence. A combination of fatigue and high winds won out over the remaining researchers, and so everyone retired to their tents at a relatively early hour. No vocalizations or other disturbances were noted that night.

It's a little hard to look for further evidence if everyone remains at camp.

Then, the following morning -- "Dismantling camp began immediately after breakfast." http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/dayeight.htm

So they found the imprint, made the cast, sat around camp, and then went home right after breakfast next morning. Doesn't sound like much of a concentrated effort to procure any further evidence.

LAL, your wishing the Skookum cast to be a real buttcast of squatch won't make it real.

If the cast "constitutes significant and compelling new evidence", it's puzzling why nothing seems to have been submitted to Nature or any other scientific journals. Have you asked Dr. Meldrum about this lack of follow-up in scientific journals? Would it have anything to do with him not finding the cast as compelling as he once thought?

And what exactly were the results of the tests conducted on the hair and chewed apple? Tests were conducted weren't they?

http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/dayseven.htm
There were several hairs apparent in the impression, along with a few bits of chewed apple. Randles and Bambenek set about collecting these bits of evidence with sterile tweezers, and placed them into containers for storage.

RayG
 
And what exactly were the results of the tests conducted on the hair and chewed apple? Tests were conducted weren't they?



RayG
I believe some ( all ? )of the hair was found to be elk ( imagine that ).. ( we have discussed this before ) No DNA was found on the apple..
I don't want to bother looking this up, but you can be sure, that if ' unknown primate ' hair, or ' unknown primate DNA ' had been found, we would be getting three servings a day...

I would suggest that ' compelling ' evidence would have caught some scientist's attention in 5 years... Chirp. Chirp.
 
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Yeah, no DNA on the apple. None. As if it weren't chewed by any animal, or chewed by an animal that doesn't leave DNA when it chews on food. A bird?

We know they took hair and saliva samples:

DNA expert Dr. Craig Newton from BC Research in Canada attempts to extract DNA from hair samples and saliva taken from the Skookum Cast site.

I mean, if footprints were found in the area of the skookum cast, then I would think they would give you a direction for pursuit.

If you wanted to follow the elk, there were clear prints for that.

If people have to be told what they are looking at, and have to have explanations to see it, how good can it be as evidence?

There were no bigfoot hairs found with the skookum cast as far as I know, even though the BFRO claims that Fahrenbach id'd a single skookum hair as sasquatch hair:

Hair samples collected at the scene and from the cast itself and examined by Dr. Henner Fahrenbach, a biomedical research scientist from Beaverton, Ore., were primarily of deer, elk, coyote, and bear, as was expected since tracks in the wallow were mostly of those animals. However, based on characteristics matching those of otherwise indeterminate primate hairs collected in association with other Sasquatch sightings, he identified a single distinctly primate hair as “Sasquatch.”

Fahrenbach cannot do any such thing, of course. What that means is they found another hair they could not identify. Which they have "matched" to other hairs they could not identify. Which means absolutely nothing.

That's whay they have quotes around the word sasquatch.

Hey, I just noticed that the BFRO says Patty weighs over 1,000 pounds and that there is a consensus on that...

After the incident investigators went to the scene and measured the tracks left behind by the figure. The track measurements were later compared to the figure's feet visible in the footage. This allowed for various other measurements and calculations of body mass and weight of the figure. Those calculations consistently add up to over 1,000 pounds.
 
DNA expert Dr. Craig Newton from BC Research in Canada attempts to extract DNA from hair samples and saliva taken from the Skookum Cast site.

If Fahrenbach only found a single "sasquatch" hair, then what "hair samples" is Craig testing for DNA in LMS? All of the hair save one was already identified, so there can only be one hair left to be checked.
 
I believe some ( all ? )of the hair was found to be elk.. ( we have discussed this before ) No DNA was found on the apple..

Sorry, forgot to surround my query with <sarcasm> indicators. It was meant to get LAL to actually look at the results, not to confirm whether they had been done. My bad.

I don't want to bother looking this up, but you can be sure, that if ' unknown primate ' hair, or ' unknown primate DNA ' had been found, we would be getting three servings a day...

Even if nothing was proven to come from a squatch, it still gets presented as though it was, ("hair was found in the imprint and scat and possible prints were found in the area.")

I would suggest that ' compelling ' evidence would have caught some scientist's attention in 5 years... Chirp. Chirp.

Not many scientists have even looked at the cast in those 5 years. There was some kerfuffle over on the BFF about whether access was being granted to selective scientists or not, but still, five years later... tick...tick...tick...

Further links on the BFF regarding the Skookum cast:
http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=2645&view=findpost&p=56610
http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=2516&st=0

RayG
 
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