Cont: Biden for President? Pt 2

[TurkeysGhost]

According to the article, the case was referred to a grand jury, which did not return an indictment. Further, the grand jury did not arrive at its decision until after Klobuchar had left the prosecutor's office.

Given that referring such cases to a grand jury was the due process in that jurisdiction at the time, I don't see how she can be held responsible for that outcome.

Did Klobuchar have a history of skipping the grand jury and bringing charges directly, but opted not to do so in this case?


If I read the story correctly, I'm not sure "people of color" are owed any appeasement over this particular case.

Given that people are currently demonstrating against the exact system that routinely fails to hold killer cops accountable, "due process at the time" is not a compelling explanation.

 

[theprestige]

Given that people are currently demonstrating against the exact system that routinely fails to hold killer cops accountable, "due process at the time" is not a compelling explanation.

Grand juries for prosecution of serious crimes seems like a reasonable due process to me.

Are you opposed to grand juries in general, or just when police officers are accused?

Do you favor grand juries, but still think Klobuchar should have done something different anyway, somehow? If so, what?

What do you think happens to minorities accused of serious crimes, if we get rid of the grand jury process?

Also, this is a thread about Biden. Specifically we're talking about Klobuchar's viability as a VP pick. Do you think it's fair to blame Klobuchar for the outcome of the system?

 

[Stacyhs]

Ah yes, "the grand jury made me do it" defense.

I'm sure that will appease people of color, especially since such insightful reasoning has never been offered before.

On Oct. 27, 2006, Chauvin was involved, along with other officers, in the shooting death of Wayne Reyes. The officers had responded to a domestic dispute where Reyes allegedly stabbed his girlfriend and a friend. Reyes took off in his truck. When he was stopped, he got out of his truck and allegedly pulled out a rifle. That is when he was shot. The Chauvin case didn't go to the grand jury until 2008. Klobuchar left the prosecutor's office in Dec. 2006. In what way is she responsible for that case?

Klobuchar's reliance on grand juries was in step with her peers nationwide

https://www.apmreports.org/story/2019/03/25/amy-klobuchar-police-hennepin-county-prosecutor

Sending police involved cases to a grand jury had been used for decades in Klobuchar's county before her time in office. It wasn't until 2016, ten years after Klobuchar had left, that the prosecutor's office said they would no longer use grand juries in police involved cases.

Can Klobuchar still be criticized for using grand juries? Sure. As a prosecutor she could still have chosen to indict over a g. jury's decision or even skip the grand jury altogether. I think a pertinent question would be to ask if she ever did so. If not, then she was following an already in place process consistently.

I think there is too much of a conflict of interest when it comes to grand juries and police involved incidents because police have a working relationship with the prosecutor's office. It is true that g juries rarely decide to indict police officers. But in the Chauvin case, I think it's unfair to declare that she refused to indict him.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Grand juries for prosecution of serious crimes seems like a reasonable due process to me.

Are you opposed to grand juries in general, or just when police officers are accused?

Do you favor grand juries, but still think Klobuchar should have done something different anyway, somehow? If so, what?

What do you think happens to minorities accused of serious crimes, if we get rid of the grand jury process?

Also, this is a thread about Biden. Specifically we're talking about Klobuchar's viability as a VP pick. Do you think it's fair to blame Klobuchar for the outcome of the system?

There's an expression that a DA could get a grand jury to "indict a ham sandwhich". It's absurdly easy to get an indictment from a grand jury for all suspects but the cops for some reason.

The routine no-billing from grand juries has been a long bone of contention. DA's kick the decision over to the grand jury and then phone in their argument resulting in a no-bill.

Klobuchar's record as DA was tough on petty crime, and lenient on police killings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/amy-klobuchar-was-a-tough-on-crime-prosecutor-will-a-diverse-democratic-base-accept-her-record/2019/03/21/739e6984-4057-11e9-9361-301ffb5bd5e6_story.html

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
By all means Biden should take the high road, but there still needs to be a PAC or something putting out ads reminding people that even Trump's own staff call him a ******* moron.

This ^.


Trump picked Pence for the sole reason of laying claim to the Evangelical vote. So sometimes the VP choice really does bring voters along.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

She. Was. No. Longer. In. The. Office. At. That. Time.

Well you know how it is when you start a rumor, some people that run with it can't change direction after that.

 

[Stacyhs]

Well you know how it is when you start a rumor, some people that run with it can't change direction after that.

So true.

 

[varwoche]

Given that people are currently demonstrating against the exact system that routinely fails to hold killer cops accountable, "due process at the time" is not a compelling explanation.

I agree this will not be a compelling argument for "people" who are driven by emotion and not attentive to facts.

 

[Stacyhs]

I agree this will not be a compelling argument for "people" who are driven by emotion and not attentive to facts.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I agree this will not be a compelling argument for "people" who are driven by emotion and not attentive to facts.

Yes, people tend to get emotional about the fact that police kill with impunity.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Waiting for interest in the case to wane before finally sweeping it all under the rug is part of the grand jury shuffle.

Of course what politician doesn't appreciate getting a promotion before certain chickens come home to roost.

 

[varwoche]

Yes, people tend to get emotional about the fact that police kill with impunity.

Indeed.

Are you saying you're too emotional to deal with facts?

Waiting for interest in the case to wane before finally sweeping it all under the rug is part of the grand jury shuffle.

Of course what politician doesn't appreciate getting a promotion before certain chickens come home to roost.

Don't worry. The odds that Klobuchar will be chosen are nil.

That said, way to double-down on your lie. That's in vogue these days.

 

[Segnosaur]

The Senate is pie-in-the-sky until 2022. Only a massive Blue Wave will flip it in November.

I don't think its as far-fetched as you might think...

There are 3, maybe 4 republican-held seats that could potentially be flipped (and one Democratic seat that will probably turn republican...).

The Democrats are likely to lose their seat in Alabama (unless something strange happens, like republican infighting during the primaries somehow sabotages their candidate).

On the other hand, the republicans have to worry about:
- Maine: Susan Collins has one of the highest disapproval ratings (due in large part to her support of Kavanaugh)
- Arizona: The current republican senator was an appointee, after having lost in her previous election attempt, and she has trailed in all recent polls
- Colorado: They have a republican senator, but the state went for Clinton in 2016 (and the current incumbent is trailing in recent polls)

There is even a chance that they could win North Carolina (the state went for Trump in 2016, but the polls seem to be split between the Republicans and Democrats). Heck, even Montana (normally a solid republican state) is seeing the Republican incumbent trailing the Democrats.

And of course even if they end up in a tie, if they also win the white house then the VP becomes the tiebreaker.

(Wiki)

Granted, I think its an outside chance (and I've certainly been disappointed before)... but its certainly not a 'pie in the sky' chance.

So let's focus on getting the White House, because if you don't get that, you won't get the Senate, either, and the takeover of the Judiciary will continue.

On the other hand, if they win the white house but don't take the senate, obstruction by senate republicans will continue. I wouldn't even put it past Moscow Mitch to block any judicial nominations from a Biden administration for the next 2 years.

 

[Stacyhs]

Yes, people tend to get emotional about the fact that police kill with impunity.

We are talking specifically about your claim that Klobuchar refused to prosecute Chauvin. You are straw manning this specific case into all police involved cases that have not been prosecuted. That is classic straw man argument.

Remember that an investigation must be done and that can take varying amounts of time before a prosecutor decides whether charges are warranted.

Given that the Oct. 27, 2006 Chauvin et al case was not even sent to the grand jury until over a year after Klobuchar had left office, would you care to explain just how you hold Klobuchar responsible?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

We are talking specifically about your claim that Klobuchar refused to prosecute Chauvin. You are straw manning this specific case into all police involved cases that have not been prosecuted. That is classic straw man argument.

Remember that an investigation must be done and that can take varying amounts of time before a prosecutor decides whether charges are warranted.

Given that the Oct. 27, 2006 Chauvin et al case was not even sent to the grand jury until over a year after Klobuchar had left office, would you care to explain just how you hold Klobuchar responsible?

Ok. I concede that Klobuchar isn't responsible for Chauvin's easy treatment in 2006. She was already out the door by the time it got to her desk.

Who cares? The broader point is that DA's are a cog in the larger machine that enables police violence. Klobuchar didn't prosecute cops. Klobuchar was not exceptional in her tenure as a DA, because preferential treatment for criminal cops is standard practice.

It's becoming increasingly clear that tough on crime DA's are no longer the career builder for aspiring Democrats. Kamala and now Klobuchar are suffering political consequences for the roles they played as prosecutors. This is a good thing.

 

[Stacyhs]

Waiting for interest in the case to wane before finally sweeping it all under the rug is part of the grand jury shuffle.
Of course what politician doesn't appreciate getting a promotion before certain chickens come home to roost.

Are you suggesting Klobuchar used this (alleged) tactic? Seeing how she was elected to the Senate on Nov. 7, 2006 (20 days before the Chauvin involved shooting), I rather doubt it. Chances are she pretty much handed over her prosecutor role to the Assistant County Attorney during those last 2 months as she was getting ready to move to DC as Sen. Klobuchar.

 

[Segnosaur]

It's becoming increasingly clear that tough on crime DA's are no longer the career builder for aspiring Democrats.

Well, to nitpick... I think being a 'tough on crime DA' would actually be a good thing, if that is actually what they were doing.

After all, a cop who uses excessive force is committing a crime, so if a DA were 'tough on crime' they would go after that cop. (Same with certain white-collar crimes, like tax fraud, which often get little attention.)

The problem is the phrase 'tough on crime' seems to have come to mean "touch on some crimes, easy on others".

 

[Stacyhs]

Ok. I concede that Klobuchar isn't responsible for Chauvin's easy treatment in 2006. She was already out the door by the time it got to her desk.

Great. And that is the ONLY thing I disputed in your original post.

Who cares?

Those who care about accuracy.

The broader point is that DA's are a cog in the larger machine that enables police violence. Klobuchar didn't prosecute cops. Klobuchar was not exceptional in her tenure as a DA, because preferential treatment for criminal cops is standard practice.

It's becoming increasingly clear that tough on crime DA's are no longer the career builder for aspiring Democrats. Kamala and now Klobuchar are suffering political consequences for the roles they played as prosecutors.

I am not arguing, and have not argued, against that.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Not meaning to be cynical, but after the events of this week I will be shocked as if by 1000 volts if Biden doesn’t go with a woman of color.

 

[Stacyhs]

Not meaning to be cynical, but after the events of this week I will be shocked as if by 1000 volts if Biden doesn’t go with a woman of color.

Agreed. And I think Klobuchar is out and maybe Harris. Abrams is looking good.