Avoiding Win 11 and staying with 10

[novaphile]

How much time did you spend setting it up so that it was exactly right? I know people for whom that is a never ending process.

Pretty much zero.

For me, the operating system needs to get out of the way, and be as unobtrusive as possible, letting me do what I need or want to do.

(i.e. run software.)

All the flashing, jumping, jiggling, irritating ◊◊◊◊ seems to be windows only so far.

 

[arthwollipot]

All the flashing, jumping, jiggling, irritating ◊◊◊◊ seems to be windows only so far.

I've been running Windows for decades and I've never seen the kind of behaviour you're describing.

 

[Blue Mountain]

But tell me how easy it is to install....Office 365 on it. You know, literally the most used office suite that exists on the planet. Yes, it can be installed, but there is no native Linux installer. So just the install of that one program is going to take a workaround and some research in how to do it, unless you're a full-time Linux user.

Why would you want to install Office 365 on Linux? It's primarily a Windows product. It would be akin to replacing the Windows desktop with KDE or Gnome. It can probably be done, but why?

There is a very good office suite for Linux—LibreOffice. Its main problem is the business world has adopted a proprietary toolkit (Microsoft Office) as its standard, and LibreOffice refuses to play the keep-up-with-Microsoft game. We wouldn't have this problem if everyone used LibreOffice. But Microsoft has done everything they can to make sure people use Office.

A lot of Office's appeal is legacy Excel spreadsheets/databases, which can do amazing things. LibreOffice Calc might be able to do a lot of the same things, but the macro language is very different and porting existing (and very complex) sheets is probably next to impossible.

Note that Office doesn't maintain compatibility with itself. Complex documents created with old versions of Office often fail to (re)format properly when opened with newer versions.

Can you click it, find the Adobe Creativity Suite and have it install? No? I'd have to go through and find Linux based alternatives for all of those applications that aren't anywhere near as full as the Adobe suite is? Awesome!

Again, why are you trying to install a product developed for Windows and MacOS on Linux?

Are you sure that none of the Linux alternatives can't compete with Adobe Creative Suite? Have you tried them all? As in, seriously taken the time to lean how to use them and see how they really stack up for your use cases? Or do you merely throw up your hands and cry "this is crap!" when an action that's second-nature to you with Adobe doesn't work with the Gimp, Inkscape, or Krita?

Also, Adobe is just as user-hostile as Microsoft. They're now forcing users to rent Adobe Suite from them. Don't pay up, and you lose the ability to edit your Creative Suite documents.

I made the mistake one time of installing Adobe Reader (or is it back to Acrobat now? They keep changing the branding) on one of my Windows systems. It's freaking HUGE! Also, I want to keep Sumatra reader as my primary PDF reader. But every freaking time I start Reader it asks if I want to make it my default PDF reader. Every time! No, damn you, if I wanted Adobe Reader as my main PDF reader, I wouldn't be using Sumatra!

As a Linux user I don't have to put up with this crap.

This is the biggest problem with Linux users, they're like crossfit and vegans. All they do is talk about how awesome Linux is all of the time. I hate bashing it because I genuinely like Linux but it's nowhere near what Windows and Mac are because of its nature. If it were as plug-and-play as you say everyone would use it because it's free, but all things said and done, it's fine.

Partly this, but most of my disdain for Windows is Microsoft with its "my way or the highway" approach, contempt for its customers, data telemetry of unknown content back to the mothership, rent-seeking behaviour, and monopolistic practices.

When Windows works, it works really well. But Microsoft keeps screwing around with it and its customer base. I mean, there's a thread on this forum of people who want to stay on Windows 10 because Microsoft is threatening to turn their current systems into e-waste.

 

[Andy_Ross]

People use them because they are the de facto standards in their industries.

 

[Mongrel]

People use them because they are the de facto standards in their industries.

There's also workflows, not sure if anything has changed in the time since this video was produced but the take away at the time was that the not using Adobe, in this case, added an extra task at each step of "dicking around to make it work"

 

[plague311]

*snipped*

Honestly, bud, all of that was just confirming I was right. You're talking about two suites, the most used two suites that exist on the face of the planet, that don't have Linux installers and that's just a few of many. They have them for both of the other OS's, but not for Linux. I also specifically said you'd point to LibreOffice, and you're complaint is that if everyone used LibreOffice, then we wouldn't need O365. Yet that's exactly what's happening except the other way around. Everyone is using O365, you're just upset they aren't using your preferred software, which you admit isn't as robust.

Anyway, I'll probably drop this because it's not really relevant anymore.

Partly this, but most of my disdain for Windows is Microsoft with its "my way or the highway" approach,

Linux isn't any different by forcing people to use their software because there aren't adaptations of the most popular software in existence.

contempt for its customers, data telemetry of unknown content back to the mothership, rent-seeking behaviour, and monopolistic practices.

Ok.

When Windows works, it works really well. But Microsoft keeps screwing around with it and its customer base. I mean, there's a thread on this forum of people who want to stay on Windows 10 because Microsoft is threatening to turn their current systems into e-waste.

No, Microsoft isn't threatening to do that at all. Microsoft is merely saying that they aren't going to continue supporting a decade old operating system after next year ( I believe the most recent announcement said they'd go through some time next year). Linux doesn't have to pay anyone to update their OS because it's mostly run by the community. It's free of charge to Linux. Microsoft doesn't have that luxury and they have a user base that's multitudes of people bigger.

 

[Darat]

There's also workflows, not sure if anything has changed in the time since this video was produced but the take away at the time was that the not using Adobe, in this case, added an extra task at each step of "dicking around to make it work"

I have tried to use other software, indeed paid for other software but when I was still doing contracting work it really was always another chore if I had to convert from the other packages back to a full adobe compatible filetype or had to get something done by someone else. And Adobe has got away with being so crap for so long because they are a monopoly - there are great alternatives for example the Affinity series of apps which are truly multi-platform - in comparison Adobe hasn't even yet managed a half decent Photoshop version for iPad Pros, never mind versions that work the same way across platforms. Plus of course there are the probably by now billion hours of training and experience embedded in the Adobe platforms. It really is just easier to pay them their tithe. I have however vowed this time when my current £25 a month for the full CS suite (European) ends I will drop Adobe. I really hope I can keep to that vow!

 

[Blue Mountain]

No, Microsoft isn't threatening to do that at all. Microsoft is merely saying that they aren't going to continue supporting a decade old operating system after next year ( I believe the most recent announcement said they'd go through some time next year).

Meanwhile, one can boot a modern Linux on 25 year old hardware and it will still run—the kernel has support all the way back to the Pentium III. (Why one would want to do so is another question.)

Why can't Windows do this? Systems that are even seven or eight years old—which describes all the computers in my home—cannot be upgraded to Windows 11, according to Microsoft. If I was a Windows 10 user, tell me what I should do as the list of unpatched Windows 10 security vulnerabilities gets longer and longer.

 

[Darat]

Meanwhile, one can boot a modern Linux on 25 year old hardware and it will still run—the kernel has support all the way back to the Pentium III. (Why one would want to do so is another question.)

Why can't Windows do this? Systems that are even seven or eight years old—which describes all the computers in my home—cannot be upgraded to Windows 11, according to Microsoft. If I was a Windows 10 user, tell me what I should do as the list of unpatched Windows 10 security vulnerabilities gets longer and longer.

Some PCs seven or eight years old can be upgraded to Windows 11, mine could for example. Theoretically Windows 11 could be installed on pretty much any hardware that can run Windows 10 however Microsoft decided that to improve overall security additional hardware requirements would become part of the minimum system requirements. Now how much more secure etc. I can't argue for but in principle that doesn't seem a bad idea to me.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Decided to upgrade the board and processor in my PC to 8th generation.
The board will take my existing drives, ram, sound and video cards.
I will put in a spare drive and install on to that and use the existing disk as a file store do I don't have to hump all the data across.

There's a place doing a bundle with board CPU and 11 licence for £150

 

[Mongrel]

Decided to upgrade the board and processor in my PC to 8th generation.
The board will take my existing drives, ram, sound and video cards.
I will put in a spare drive and install on to that and use the existing disk as a file store do I don't have to hump all the data across.

There's a place doing a bundle with board CPU and 11 licence for £150

Probably a good time to give the whole system a dust out.
Are you getting a new CPU cooler? If not don't forget the thermal goop

 

[arthwollipot]

If I were forced to be using 15-year old hardware I'd probably definitely consider running Linux on it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Probably a good time to give the whole system a dust out.
Are you getting a new CPU cooler? If not don't forget the thermal goop

I already have the paste. I have my whole set of tools etc that I used as a field engineer when I was supporting dental electronics and installing practice management systems.

The cooler I have is more than adequate for a modest processor upgrade.

 

[steenkh]

If I were forced to be using 15-year old hardware I'd probably definitely consider running Linux on it.

If I started all over again, I would definitely run with Linux. I tried it many years ago, but at that time it was a hell to set up, because I needed to go hunting for Linux drivers for every piece of hardware, and particularly for my network card and my printer. I am told it is easier now, so now Linux might be viable, but now I have spent a fortune in software licenses, and taken the time to learn to use the stuff that I bought, and I don't want to start all over again.

Though I am a computer adept, and I certainly could learn Linux, I have other interests, and prefer to use the computer as a tool, and not as an end in itself. But the upcoming change from Win 10 to 11 will force me to spend an inordinate amount of time and money (of which time is the most annoying) not spending my time on anything that that gives me joy.

 

[plague311]

Meanwhile, one can boot a modern Linux on 25 year old hardware and it will still run—the kernel has support all the way back to the Pentium III. (Why one would want to do so is another question.)

Then stick with Linux. I'm not trying to sell you on Windows. Everyone knows that you're a Linux guy, you love it, you never want to use anything else. Every single thread that's ever created in Computers has you hopping in it at some point to tell everyone that Windows sucks and Linux is always the answer.

You're right on the latter part, why would anyone want to do that? What possible use would you have for even 15 year old hardware? You're not doing high end video editing or development of any kind. You aren't playing high end video games with any actual quality graphics. All you'd do is maybe some light graphic work and other than that it's an internet cruising box. Great news, you can spin up a Windows 95 machine and do the same ◊◊◊◊ with it. All the way back to Pentium 3. Who cares?

Why can't Windows do this?

Why would they want to? "Linux" doesn't do it, their community does. If you go looking on Github or other places you can find old windows images that you can put on VMs or on old hardware that work just fine. Windows is a business, "Linux" isn't a business. The people who make money off of linux all charge money. Apple, Red Hat, etc. All of those images charge a cost, because making ◊◊◊◊ on a mass scale isn't free.

Systems that are even seven or eight years old—which describes all the computers in my home—cannot be upgraded to Windows 11, according to Microsoft.

As Darat said, plenty of systems that are 7-8 years old can go to Windows 11. It all depends on what chip\mobo they have because TPM 2.0 has been around for a decadeish. If the security option is there and can be utilized then what serious OS developer would not take advantage of it? You're complaining about an OS that's pushing security just because you don't like them.

If I was a Windows 10 user, tell me what I should do as the list of unpatched Windows 10 security vulnerabilities gets longer and longer.

Well, since support literally hasn't ended yet, I would say keep updating your system. Other than that you can pay for an extended license, as has been mentioned in this thread, and if you still HAVE to run on outdated hardware then that's on you. Microsoft, or any other company for that matter, doesn't owe you security updates for the rest of your life. Red Hat Linux literally has a 10 year life span and after that, guess what? You have to pay for a new version.

But the upcoming change from Win 10 to 11 will force me to spend an inordinate amount of time and money (of which time is the most annoying) not spending my time on anything that that gives me joy.

Not that I'm calling you out, but what time and money are you investing to move from 10 to 11? If you already have Windows 10 the upgrade to 11 is free. The GUI is damn near the same, and if you do an in place upgrade you won't even have to uninstall\reinstall your software. I'm confused as to what the big investment is vs learning an entirely new OS and peripheral tools.

 

[Wudang]

If I started all over again, I would definitely run with Linux. I tried it many years ago, but at that time it was a hell to set up, because I needed to go hunting for Linux drivers for every piece of hardware, and particularly for my network card and my printer. I am told it is easier now, so now Linux might be viable, but now I have spent a fortune in software licenses, and taken the time to learn to use the stuff that I bought, and I don't want to start all over again.

Though I am a computer adept, and I certainly could learn Linux, I have other interests, and prefer to use the computer as a tool, and not as an end in itself. But the upcoming change from Win 10 to 11 will force me to spend an inordinate amount of time and money (of which time is the most annoying) not spending my time on anything that that gives me joy.

Yeah I have a lot of sympathy for that. I am a computer nerd and happy to discuss various operating systems strengths and weaknesses. But most people, like you, have a computer because they want to do something - whether that be play games, design circuit boards, dress up their photos etc. And they often choose an app, Photoshop for example is so ubiquitous it's become the standard term (or "Shopped") for an enhanced/altered image.
There's a question I remember from a philosophy book years back, source forgotten. If a car mechanic with an artificial arm is working on a car, is the artificial arm part of the organism struggling with the environment or part of the environment the organism is struggling with? The ability to sit down and just use a tool, be it a PC or a saw etc, is underrated. At the end of they day when I'm writing code or a doc am I just able to sit there and do it without thinking too much about how I do it?
So often these debates are like someone arguing which vehicle is best when one person needs a family car and one needs a Land Rover.

 

[theprestige]

Pretty much zero.

For me, the operating system needs to get out of the way, and be as unobtrusive as possible, letting me do what I need or want to do.

(i.e. run software.)

All the flashing, jumping, jiggling, irritating ◊◊◊◊ seems to be windows only so far.

MacOS has entered the chat.

 

[Wudang]

MacOS has entered the chat.

It's been pretty good to be fair. Clean. I only vaguely remember a couple of tweaks I made - one was assigning screen lock to Meta-L

 

[arthwollipot]

MacOS has entered the chat.

It entered the chat 55 posts ago.

 

[Dabop]

If you're aiming this at me, I literally have an Ubuntu machine on the current kernel. The last time I "tried" it was on Friday when I was tinkering with my Pi-Hole install.

It's not in any way "far more 'plug and play' than windows". The implication is stupid in and of itself. Like I said, you can web surf easily on it, thanks for the screenshot to literally prove my point, but tell me how easy it is to install....Office 365 on it. You know, literally the most used office suite that exists on the planet. Yes, it can be installed, but there is no native Linux installer. So just the install of that one program is going to take a workaround and some research in how to do it, unless you're a full-time Linux user. I'll guess you're going to say something like Linux has OpenOffice, or LibreOffice, and those are fine if you work in that environment, but you switch them over to an Office 365 user and the formatting goes to ◊◊◊◊. So at best it's a temu version of Office.


Cool, Ubuntu software. Can you click it, find the Adobe Creativity Suite and have it install? No? I'd have to go through and find Linux based alternatives for all of those applications that aren't anywhere near as full as the Adobe suite is? Awesome!

This is the biggest problem with Linux users, they're like crossfit and vegans. All they do is talk about how awesome Linux is all of the time. I hate bashing it because I genuinely like Linux but it's nowhere near what Windows and Mac are because of its nature. If it were as plug-and-play as you say everyone would use it because it's free, but all things said and done, it's fine.

I (like most 'home users') have no need for Office or Abode- and the few times I need to use such things, I use the Linux equivalents quite happily

This is the attitude I am talking about- that you NEED to use specific software brands- when the majority of people never do actually use them anyway...
(I know of ZERO home users that use office365- you pay to buy it- then pay to use it... and the prices are crazy...)


Photoshop for example is a nightmare and I hate using it when I have to- it is so unintuitive next to Gimp... (which does the exact same job) Abode is another 'subscription' model that costs (a LOT) to have and many users are extremely unhappy about THEIR price gouging as well lol eg


There's nothing 'bashing' about it- Windows has become a nightmare for many, and there ARE other alternatives to using it... (and many of the 'windows' programs)

And yes, my current Ubuntu IS 'plug and play'- I bought a new printer (again, bloody inkjets) and it literally just plugged in and worked...

Thats literally the definition of 'plug and play' lol

The majority of home users use can easily be taken up by linux (as I said, I prefer Ubuntu for those) without the need for buying a new computer just to satisfy the micro$oft demand for money... and constant 'upgrades' forced by O/S bloat...

Windows users are often the most abusive when it comes to dismissing 'anything but Windows'....