Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

[MRC_Hans]

So what? How on earth is that relevant to my point? I've been clear throughout this thread what that point is: I'm asking what indirect influences having atheism as a metaphysical framework might have. For an example, see the quote I gave earlier where the person thought having more atheist politicians would be better because atheists tend to be more intelligent and moral (because "none of us have a reason to hate anyone, whether it be sexual preference, ethnicity, nationality"). Of course, atheism isn't defined as "atheists are more intelligent and moral", but I think it is fair to ask what line can be drawn between belief (or lack of a belief) as to influences and implications in the real world.

As others point out, atheism is not a metaphysical framework. Being an atheist does not preclude having a metaphysical framework, but atheism as such is not one. This is the reason people keep asking "what kind of atheists?"

And that becomes clearer when the CCP frame it as "atheism vs theism", "science vs superstition", "materialism vs idealism". You can disagree with me, that's fine, but you seem to think I am arguing something that I am not, which is not productive for either of us. Thanks for your time.

Well, it might be more productive if you would actually be clear about what you ARE arguing, rather than about what you are not.

...

In the context of what influence belief systems have on governments, specifically totalitarian governments, we must realize that the wannabe dictatorship only has limited options. Of course, they can simply set themselves down as tyrants, but revolutions then tend to follow unpleasantly often, so most will seek some kind of legitimacy. And here, they do need something that could be called a metaphysical framework, and there are really only three types:

1) God(s) is(are) with us.

2) We are god.

3) We are communists, and there are no gods.

Obviously, #3 will tend to be the most attractive to atheists, or at least folks posing as atheists. We must remember that the people in power need not believe a word of it themselves, although it takes a certain style to adhere to #2.

Hans

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

...

3) We are communists, and there are no gods.

...

Further if I recall correct, Karl Marx "cooked" the difference between objective and subjective to arrive at a functional objective ethical system. I.e. some forms of communism are no different that some religions; it is a claim of Objective Authority.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Further if I recall correct, Karl Marx "cooked" the difference between objective and subjective to arrive at a functional objective ethical system. I.e. some forms of communism are no different that some religions; it is a claim of Objective Authority.

Well, sans the supernatural powers, obviously ...

Hans

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

Well, sans the supernatural powers, obviously ...

Hans

Yes, but the effect is the same. Some people claim Objective Authority and that is not limited to religious people. Religion is a sub-set of the ability to claim Objective Authority, you can use the supernatural or the natural, but the effect is the same.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Yes, but the effect is the same. Some people claim Objective Authority and that is not limited to religious people. Religion is a sub-set of the ability to claim Objective Authority, you can use the supernatural or the natural, but the effect is the same.

I very much disagree. Claiming authority based on supernatural powers is something entirely else: You have a god that can punish people after death, can intervene arbitrarily against the laws of physics, etc. A god that must be believed, served, and pleased, often in inscrutable ways.

Claiming authority based on the physical world is far, far more limited.

Hans

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

I very much disagree. Claiming authority based on supernatural powers is something entirely else: You have a god that can punish people after death, can intervene arbitrarily against the laws of physics, etc. A god that must be believed, served, and pleased, often in inscrutable ways.

Claiming authority based on the physical world is far, far more limited.

Hans

All through this process, the work of his mind consists of answers to a single question: What is it? His means to establish the truth of his answers is logic, and logic rests on the axiom that existence exists. Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification. A contradiction cannot exist. An atom is itself, and so is the universe; neither can contradict its own identity; nor can a part contradict the whole. No concept man forms is valid unless he integrates it without contradiction into the total sum of his knowledge. To arrive at a contradiction is to confess an error in one’s thinking; to maintain a contradiction is to abdicate one’s mind and to evict oneself from the realm of reality.

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/logic.html
That is the functional version of Hell for a non-religious human.
I condemn you outside reality based on the natural world.

 

[MRC_Hans]

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/logic.html
That is the functional version of Hell for a non-religious human.
I condemn you outside reality based on the natural world.

Rubbish.

Hans

 

[carlitos]

NPR had a good series on this for Morning Edition. The one Chinese lady who married a Kazakh and moved there was forced to have an abortion, her brother sent to a camp, and when they finally let her return to Kazakhstan, she was forced to sign a bunch of papers that she would never tell the press what the Chinese gov't did to her.


Apparently, there are three categories of folks in the camps - those who traveled / moved outside China, Uighur and Kazakh ethnic peoples, and the religious. Presumably political dissidents find themselves there as well.

Ex-Detainee Describes Torture In China's Xinjiang Re-Education Camp

Families Of The Disappeared: A Search For Loved Ones Held In China's Xinjiang Region

 

[JoeMorgue]

I have a question.

Why doesn't God stop the atheist?

 

[Nay_Sayer]

I have a question.

Why doesn't God stop the atheist?

Mysterious ways; The same mysterious plan that entails giving kids cancer and starving them from birth.

 

[David Mo]

Further if I recall correct, Karl Marx "cooked" the difference between objective and subjective to arrive at a functional objective ethical system. I.e. some forms of communism are no different that some religions; it is a claim of Objective Authority.

Claiming about objective truths is not the same that to be religious. The philosophical concept of objective is not the religious concept of objective. The one is rational the other is not. Your eager subjectivism makes you to see ghosts. HIstory of philosophy is plenty of non religious objectivism.

 

[David Mo]

I have a question.

Why doesn't God stop the atheist?

God wants Christian's suffering. So they become saints. When lions tuck into some Christian the Heaven Angels are happy, sing praises to God and God is happy.

I don't know how you cannot understand a so simple thing.

But this set a delicate probleme out: Is the Chinese government necessary to God's mysterious dessigns? If so, is the Chinese government a real good for Christians? If we kick the ass of some Christian are we doing an objective good? Should I do it for the cause of Divine Providence?

I have consulted many Ecclesia Paters' books but I continue to be confused on this point. My spiritual pater says that these are God's inscrutable ways. I don't know. I am thinking to enrol the Chinese Communist Party. For the Crhistianity cause, of course.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I have a question.

Why doesn't God stop the atheist?

Interesting question. TBD has rejected the Bible's teaching, and rejected prayer, as viable solutions to the problem.
Perhaps GDon would like to answer this.

TBD - I would respectfully suggest you pray for the Chinese to change their ways:

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.


Surely this should work?

Yet, I get the feeling you are going to continue to post this nonsense, oh well.

I said I already posted what steps I think were appropriate to counter the ******* atheist scum in China, none of which involved praying.

If god permits suffering, and prayer is useless, it kind of removes a lot of the justification for believing, doesn't it? Isn't this a tacit admission that it's all just made up, and that only real-world solutions- discussions, sanctions etc.- will actually work to help stop the opression?

 

[MRC_Hans]

As I understand it (but I may well be wrong), God does not reveal his existence to non-believers besause we should believe on faith. He also allows suffering because he will compensate the fairhful in Heaven.

Why all this should be so is, of course ... inscrutable

Hans

 

[Hellbound]

Why all this should be so is, of course ... inscrutable

Perhaps you meant to say...

...INEFFABLE?



Waiting impatiently for the Good Omens miniseries

 

[Crossbow]

As I understand it (but I may well be wrong), God does not reveal his existence to non-believers besause we should believe on faith. He also allows suffering because he will compensate the fairhful in Heaven.

Why all this should be so is, of course ... inscrutable

Hans

That is almost exactly what 'The Big Dog' said to me when I asked about why his god is so terrible at protecting his own followers. Specifically:

well score one for the Atheists then huh?

However, and although I cannot speak for the Muslims and other faiths that the Atheist Chinese State is oppressing, at least some Christians would disagree with your... comment.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matthew Chapter 5 v. 10-12

Therefore, according to theist logic the persecutors should be rewarded by the people that they are persecuting because the people who are being persecuted will eventually be rewarded by the god who is allowing them to be persecuted to begin with.

Yeah. It really does not make much sense, but then again, theism has never really made sense to begin with so there is really no point in trying to get theism to make sense now.

 

[MRC_Hans]

That is almost exactly what 'The Big Dog' said to me when I asked about why his god is so terrible at protecting his own followers. Specifically:



Therefore, according to theist logic the persecutors should be rewarded by the people that they are persecuting because the people who are being persecuted will eventually be rewarded by the god who is allowing them to be persecuted to begin with.

Yeah. It really does not make much sense, but then again, theism has never really made sense to begin with so there is really no point in trying to get theism to make sense now.

While it doesn't make sense, it at least has a measure of logic. However, if I felt any compulsion to live by it, I should be somewhat worried.

Hans

 

[The Big Dog]

Really gratifying that we have made so much progress that people have abandoned any pretense in challenging the fact that the on going human rights violations in China were a direct result of the Unyielding Marxist Atheists (I guess people really cottoned to the fact that authoritarianism was the condition that allowed the atheists to express their anti-religious attacks)!

Really exciting, now many people are troubled with the question of what is God doing about it, unfortunately this is being asked by people who really have not taken the time to understand what it mean what they ask what is God doing about nor understanding that in asking that they are really asking what are We as God's people doing about it.

So now that we have settled the obvious, it makes sense to focus on the challenge of ending these human rights violations, as we have done in the past with God's great mercy.

In the meantime, for people still struggling with the concept, I will let you know that there are a millennia of brilliant minds to help you on your journey. Here is as good as any place to start.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Really gratifying that we have made so much progress that people have abandoned any pretense in challenging the fact that the on going human rights violations in China were a direct result of the Unyielding Marxist Atheists

It has been challenged through all the thread. You are merely playing obtuse.

Really exciting, now many people are troubled with the question of what is God doing about it, unfortunately this is being asked by people who really have not taken the time to understand what it mean what they ask what is God doing about nor understanding that in asking that they are really asking what are We as God's people doing about it.

I assume there is some meaning hidden in that dish of word salad.

So now that we have settled the obvious, it makes sense to focus on the challenge of ending these human rights violations, as we have done in the past with God's great mercy.

AH. You were asked, many pages ago, what you would do about it. I fear I missed your answer. I also happen to be unaware of cases where massive human rights abuses were ended by means of god's mercy.

Hans

 

[The Big Dog]

It has been challenged through all the thread. You are merely playing obtuse.

It was, for a while (and mostly when people were not howling that criticizing atheists in China was worse than putting a million people in camps).

But reason and consistency from the people taking the time to expose the flaws in the arguments have eroded the objections that it was the result of atheism.

So now the question is: what are we to do about it?

Exciting times.