Are atheists inevitably pessimists?

[Steve]

Right now, I'm sitting in a suburban park on a sunny spring morning, drinking a coffee, waiting to pick the kids up from their last school event for the term. Catching up on my reading (when I'm not posting here)

Who needs meaning? This is meaning enough.

Sounds good to me, but there is at least one poster here who still thinks your life has no meaning. Perhaps you should adopt one of the countless “ism’s of philosophy so you can over analyze yourself until you feel properly miserable.

 

[Thor 2]

You hard hearted lot.

Don't you know that the greatest joy is in giving. David is crying out for confirmation that we are miserable and it will give him a real buzz if he gets it.

I'm miserable Dave ...... show me the way out.

 

[David Mo]

Your conditionality is well chosen. Your starting point is that you understand your opponents to hold a position that they do not in fact hold, and that your opponents fail to understand a set of premises that they do in fact understand. In the circumstances, it's hardly surprising that your reasoning produces absurd results; but as a philosopher, shouldn't the drawing of absurd conclusions alert you to the possibility that your premises are urgently in need of re-examination?

Dave

You're dodging the issue with generic accusations that lead nowhere. The point is that I raised the issue of the original project (honestly, "vital" sounds a little corny to me) and you refuse to go into the issue.

Again, this is what an original project is:

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people.
And similar.

Don't you have an original project in your live? Truly?

 

[David Mo]

(...)
It's not even close to being true. I compared gods to other mythical/fictional characters which to nonbelievers Gods are identical and they are.

You compare two things by limiting yourself to what they have in common and refuse to analyze what is different about them. And then you call me stupid. Great argument.

 

[David Mo]

And I am still waiting to hear what is so meaningful about an eternal existence ruled over by an omnipotent dictator.

Well, I've already explained it to you: that he presents himself as a protective Superfather who bestows eternal life. Does that seem like a small offer to you?

 

[David Mo]

You say you don't care that your existence makes sense.
I explained to you that when I speak of meaning of existence I am not speaking of anything "metaphysical", as the absent-minded person above says.

I have explained to you that the meaning of existence consists of an original project (or vital, if you like this word) that consists more or less of:

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people...

Don't you guys have anything like that?

(I'll bet you go to now start avoiding the question in a thousand ways).

 

[David Mo]

Could it not in fact be said that an existence where we have to decide what really is important and what is not, is a more meaningful existence than one where all these questions have been pre-decided and we only have the option of obeying or facing vicious retribution?

The two types of project make sense. Only one of them is based on an illusion, i.e. falsehood and has other negative things derived from it. You choose which one I am talking about.
It seems to me that you still don't understand what I'm talking about when I say "meaning of life". Meaning does not mean in this debate some spiritual thing, but to be directed towards an end. See my previous post.

 

[quadraginta]

It's not really off topic. If sitting back in a chair sharing a cold one with friends watching a sunset is how you define the meaning of life, who am I to argue with you? It's just not the meaning of life to me. If it was, I would have a permanent look of distaste on my face because regardless of the type of beer I can't stand it. That goes for Scotch too. My impression is nobody likes either at first but some way, somehow they develop a taste for them.

I liked both the first time I tasted them. Perhaps a bit too much, as it turned out.

OTOH, I have never been able to abide the taste of bourbon, in any form, no matter how often I have tried it.

It quite literally makes me sick. Quickly. Back when I still drank, and was a serious, compulsive drinker, if bourbon was the only alcoholic beverage available I would go without. It just wasn't worth it.

 

[Tassman]

Well, I've already explained it to you: that he presents himself as a protective Superfather who bestows eternal life. Does that seem like a small offer to you?

It's meaningless escapism. A life grounded in wishful thinking is not going to result in an optimistic world view.

 

[David Mo]

It's meaningless escapism. A life grounded in wishful thinking is not going to result in an optimistic world view.

Of course. But some people believe that they can find some consolation in it. Optimism-pessimism seems an incorrect description for this case. Happiness is a too strong word. Consolation or refuge are better.

 

[David Mo]

It's just not the meaning of life to me.

Are you saying your life makes sense to you?

 

[quadraginta]

Well, I've already explained it to you: that he presents himself as a protective Superfather who bestows eternal life. Does that seem like a small offer to you?

"He" doesn't present "himself" as anything.

The humans who made up and continue to embellish those fairy tales have done all that.

 

[Dave Rogers]

You're dodging the issue with generic accusations that lead nowhere. The point is that I raised the issue of the original project (honestly, "vital" sounds a little corny to me) and you refuse to go into the issue.

OK, let's go into it.

Again, this is what an original project is:

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people.
And similar.

I have an idea about myself, my capacities and my weaknesses.
I have an idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
I have some understanding of how to achieve some things and avoid others.
I am able to relate to other people.

These are separate things in my life. I see no need or point in trying to erect a construct called "an original project" - or, as I suspect you mean, a religion - to shoehorn them all into the same ill-fitting container.

Don't you have an original project in your live? Truly?

Truly; because I do not choose to live my life according to your arbitrary, personal - and, in my view, pernicious and insignificant - set of definitions.

And it's "life," not "live."

Dave

 

[Robin]

Well, I've already explained it to you: that he presents himself as a protective Superfather who bestows eternal life. Does that seem like a small offer to you?

That seems to dodge my question. What is so meaningful about eternal life under an omnipotent dictator.(or "Suoerfather" if you prefer)?

 

[Robin]

You say you don't care that your existence makes sense.
I explained to you that when I speak of meaning of existence I am not speaking of anything "metaphysical", as the absent-minded person above says.

If you are talking about something above and beyond the everyday fulfilment and satisfaction that might be sought in a material world.

I have explained to you that the meaning of existence consists of an original project (or vital, if you like this word) that consists more or less of:

a) An idea about themselves, your capacities and weaknesses.
b) An idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
c) How to achieve some and avoid others.
d) How to relate to other people...

Don't you guys have anything like that?

Of course I have an idea of my capacities and weakness. Of course I have an idea of what things are important to me, what is pernicious to me and what is insignificant to me. Of course I have an idea of how to achieve some and avoid others. And of course I have an idea of how to relate to others.

Who doesn't?

Isn't that just part of normal functioning human life?

 

[Robin]

That seems to dodge my question. What is so meaningful about eternal life under an omnipotent dictator.(or "Suoerfather" if you prefer)?

I could break this down into separate questions.

1. Is eternal life more meaningful than a brief life, and if so why?

2. Is a life protected by a "Suoerfather" more meaningful than a life where we have to depend on each other and if so why?

If you can't answer these then you can't claim the Theist "project" would be more meaningful than the life we have.

 

[The Common Potato]

I'm not interpreting you. I tell you that you are mistaken. Can't stand to be told that you're wrong?

I love being told am I wrong. That way, given some new knowledge or finding out new stuff for myself, I might learn stuff. You are simply wrong in telling me that I am mistaken.

 

[David Mo]

I love being told am I wrong. That way, given some new knowledge or finding out new stuff for myself, I might learn stuff. You are simply wrong in telling me that I am mistaken.

Fine!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vY-4zWKsJM

 

[David Mo]

Of course I have an idea of my capacities and weakness. Of course I have an idea of what things are important to me, what is pernicious to me and what is insignificant to me. Of course I have an idea of how to achieve some and avoid others. And of course I have an idea of how to relate to others.

Who doesn't?

Isn't that just part of normal functioning human life?

I have an idea about myself, my capacities and my weaknesses.
I have an idea of which things are important and which are pernicious or insignificant.
I have some understanding of how to achieve some things and avoid others.
I am able to relate to other people.

These are separate things in my life. I see no need or point in trying to erect a construct called "an original project" - or, as I suspect you mean, a religion - to shoehorn them all into the same ill-fitting container.

Dave

Bravo! Looks like we're approaching positions. Now I don't have time to develop the idea. I'll be back tomorrow.

 

[Robin]

Bravo! Looks like we're approaching positions. Now I don't have time to develop the idea. I'll be back tomorrow.

We seem to be approaching the position that the "vital project" you are talking about consists of things that most people do anyway.

You might explain why you think that things like knowing your strengths and weaknesses and knowing what is and isn't important to us, or knowing how to relate to people are things that apply in particular to atheists.

Do you think that atheists are particularly bad at these things?