Angelika Graswald

[Desert Fox]

I had assumed that the Hudson Valley has hills to the west, yes. But after consulting a topographic map of the area ....... I'm not seeing any significant elevation due west of Bannerman's Island. The river ia over a mile across there.

Still are around 250 +/- feet high. Probably going to have the sun completely behind the hills by 1915 or so. I used Stellarium and moved it to that date and time. The sun was completely behind the artificial hills at that time.

And speaking about the river being a mile, that is why I used the James river.
Where I am at, it is around a mile wide. Even with my high powered binoculars (used for star gazing), I would have a hard time seeing a kayak halfway in the middle of the river.

 

[kali1137]

You don't go out at all without a life vest. Pay attention to the weather. You should not drink while kayaking - and it is against the law where if you are inebriated even while in a self powered craft, it si considered the same as if you are driving a car. If you are not trained in kayak rescue techniques, the best thing you can do is save yourself.

I completely agree. I go back and forth on this case a lot. The only reason I would even question it as being anything more than accident is her admission and behavior. She is all but painting a bullseye on herself. But yes, in the grand scheme of things, he made all the choices that led to his sinking/tipping.

 

[RWVBWL]

What a Wing-Girl could see

Greetings,
During all their kayak paddling trips together that VV + AG enjoyed, at some point in time,
Angelika being Vincent's wing-girl had to have seen that his stern rode low, much lower than her own.

For else why would Angelika have ever decided to unscrew
+ then remove the Drain-Age Plug from the stern of Vincent's kayak?
So the kitty cat could, um play with it?
Hmmmm, ok...


Angelika,
being Vinny's wing-girl,
would have seen water come over Vincent's stern if he paddled hard, fast,
for his bow would lift up a bit, his stern go under abit if he propelled himself forward hard,
like I am doing here, using the same model of kayak as Vincent last paddled:

+



Just like it does when the Los Angeles Lifeguards fire up the diesel engines
on The Baywatch Lifeguard boat out past The Buoy, guns it, while heading back to Marina de Rey:



Angelika, being Vincent's wing-girl,
would have also seen how his stern rode low if Vinny was paddling his 'Fusion 124' kayak
into the wind, thru the wind chop, going up + down, up + down thru the swells
like I am doing so here, in a 'Fusion 124' kayak, as I approach The Buoy:

Or if Vincent had a strong wind, and waves following him.
Lets use this photo as an example, for it was shot by a dudes wing-girl
as he approached the South side of Bannerman Island, with a wind following him and lil' waves too:


I dug up the wind reports from the weather station adjacent to Bannerman Island that day, winds direction was as I thought, blowing from the SW to SSW, against The Hudson River flow, creating the wind chop, those "crazy waves" his wing-girl called them + photographed that were following her dude right then that day.

If Angelika saw how Vincent's 'Fusion 124' kayak stern would have been constantly awash in conditions like this, and at some point in time, ( a few weeks before, or even at some point right before returning homeward on their last paddle together), she decided to un-screw and then remove the Drain-Age Plug from the stern of Vincent's kayak, well she might have wanted him dead, right?


+

+


"I'm ok with it."
"I'm ok with that."
Hmmmm, ok...


See you next time,
RW

 

[Desert Fox]

I completely agree. I go back and forth on this case a lot. The only reason I would even question it as being anything more than accident is her admission and behavior. She is all but painting a bullseye on herself. But yes, in the grand scheme of things, he made all the choices that led to his sinking/tipping.

The police, the same ones who complain about her behavior, use various coping strategies to deal with the horror. It is better to laugh than to cry sort of thing. You find with cops that no matter what the defendant does, it is always suspicious. If you cry, you are guilty. If you try to be stoic, it is suspicious. If you try to be relaxed, that is suspicious.

After eleven hours of interrogation, a person may admit to anything.
This is a transcript of Eric Wilson of the Norfolk Four on the stand.
taken from the PBS documentary "The Confessions"

NARRATOR: Eric took the stand in his own defense. He claimed that his confession was false and was extracted by Detective Ford, who was, he said, very aggressive, very threatening, very angry. The prosecutor asked Eric if he would confess to killing someone if it weren't true.

ERIC WILSON: At that point in time, if they had told me that I killed JFK, I would have told them that I handed Oswald the gun.

False confessions, which she did not actually confess to murder, are frightfully common.

 

[Shiner]

I've had time to go back through the thread and most of the links to all the news articles now.

A few thoughts.

On the body only moving a mile over a month. The point has been made about currents and eddies, etc, but the Hudson is also tidal. I think that is the main reason the body stayed in the area. The tidal flow is known to have this effect.

Desert Fox, I've noted your comments about light, and the use of the telescope by the witness. I think we can discount that after reading the account of how the power boat from the marina became involved. A woman saw the kayakers in trouble from the marina and alerted others who then motored out to her. This suggests reasonable visibility at water level, which suggests better visibility from the top of the bank with the last rays of sun beaming from behind.

Both of the kayaks involved look to be very wide and stable. It's very hard for me to imagine anyone tipping one over. It's also very hard to imagine, as RW pointed out, how the hell Angelika was able to maintain control while using her phone if things were so bad that both craft capsized.

Besides all that, I've seen a lot of pics of Angelika now, and I think she's a very attractive woman. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. This is a purely hormonal conclusion.

IF she did it, I still think it was an opportunity she realised whilst on the island. She was volunteering on the island for 3 years? She knew that stretch of river quite well, I say. She would be aware of the tail of Vincents kayak being submerged constantly on the crossing. They would've been aware of the conditions on the water becoming uglier.

And tipping. The easiest way to tip another yakker is to hit their tail with your nose at the right angle. This is much easier in rough water.

How and why did Vincent become seperated from his yak? That makes no sense. If you fall out of a kayak, you never actually lose contact with it. Unless you panic, I guess. The shock of the 40° water?

Also. Would you not just paddle over to your friend/lover so they can hold onto your (very stable) kayak? This doesn't sound like it happened. She watched him. And how the hell did she end up with his paddle?

Still a lot of mystery in this one. Her 'apparent' actions after his capsize just don't make sense to me.

 

[Desert Fox]

Have you even been in an emergency situation? The reality is that most often, unless trained, you will do the wrong thing.

With various rescue techniques, both are completely untrained.

I actually don't think that Viafort flipped his kayak but somehow fell out. The cockpit of his kayak is huge. I have a much smaller opening in my kayak and not likely to fall out but instead flip. Don't forget that people fall out of full sized rowboats, in many cases while drunk.

Whenever she went to the Island, she took a large boat which does not give you the same sense of how the water effect a kayak. I have sailing experience on large sail boats and it certainly does not allow me to understand how to deal with dangerous weather conditions in a kayak.

In cold water, there is what is called the 1-10-1 rule
http://www.coldwaterbootcamp.com/pages/1_10_60v2.html

Essentially you will probably be in a panic for that first minute, you will be flailing. It is very easy to lose track of where your kayak is. Have you ever practiced bailing out of your kayak in the water. I practiced this in warm water and it took me a probably fifteen seconds to figure out where my kayak was. I am not panicked either. Imagine you are half panicked and in high waves.

I have a white water kayak and can turn on a dime practically. I was at Lake Drummond in calm water and wanted another kayak to get something from the back of my kayak. It took a fair amount of maneuvering to get us lined up. They were not in calm water, it was getting dark, and there were high winds. It is hard to actually get close to somebody. An expert also stated specifically that he would have been more effected by current while she would have been more effected by wind.

Also it is liekly for the first few minutes after the initial panic, they did not realize how serious a situation they were at.

Now, I don't think anybody spied them through a telescope and called for rescue. It is far more likely that somebody is just lying and trying to get their ten minutes of fame. Yu see that in so many cases where you have a witness that was not even there but claims that they did. I believe the rescue boat was somebody ready to go and was asked by the police based on her 9-11 call.
By the way, provide a solid source on what this person claimed.

Edit: The only thing this telescope couple appears to have seen from news articles is a couple on the Island near dusk
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...der-Angelika-Graswald-New-York-301826811.html
Wes Gottlock, 70, whose West Windsor, New York, home overlooks the Hudson River, says he and his wife were looking toward Bannerman's Island on the night of Viafore's disappearance. It was from that island that Graswald has told investigators the pair pushed off into the night.

"All I can say is that we did see them on the island that evening, through our telescope from our house," Gottlock tells PEOPLE.

 

[Shiner]

You ignored my logical point. A woman (no telescope or bino's mentioned) was able to see that the kayaker/s needed help. From the shore. From water level at the marina.

Obviously this means there was some light. Obviously if you're at the top of the river bank the visibility will be better than if you're at water level.

Mostly, your post is asserting opinions. It doesn't seem to be based in fact or logic.

Telescope guy makes it clear that "all I can say" ...... I take this to mean that he's been told to not disclose what he did see until the trial.

I think you're clutching a bit with some of the points. I think some of these "expert witnesses" are telling the story that the defense havs asked them to tell.

I've never seen someone "fall out of" a kayak. Canoes, yes. Not kayaks.
As RW's pics and videos show, the model of kayak that Vincent was in is very hard to tip over.

How do we establish that he was drunk. Isn't this just speculation? I can't imagine a blood alcohol test would show anything after a month in the water.

 

[Desert Fox]

You ignored my logical point. A woman (no telescope or bino's mentioned) was able to see that the kayaker/s needed help. From the shore. From water level at the marina.

Source. . . .Not RW fantasies!

Mostly, your post is asserting opinions. It doesn't seem to be based in fact or logic.

It is a simple fact that 139 people died in the United States in 2015 in Kayaks and Canoes, most through drowning. The simple fact is that basically none except this one is assumed to be murder.
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americ...PP-documents/USCG_Statistics_2015_partial.pdf

Do you really thing none of these were in Rec kayaks?

Telescope guy makes it clear that "all I can say" ...... I take this to mean that he's been told to not disclose what he did see until the trial.

Don't make up stuff then.

I think you're clutching a bit with some of the points. I think some of these "expert witnesses" are telling the story that the defense havs asked them to tell.

Why? The media can run a story either way. They can run a story of either innocent woman wrongly imprisoned or evil Latvian witch.

I've never seen someone "fall out of" a kayak. Canoes, yes. Not kayaks.
As RW's pics and videos show, the model of kayak that Vincent was in is very hard to tip over.

Remember - Cock Up before Conspiracy.
How he ended up in the water, I don't think we will ever know for sure but it is fantasy in blaming somebody else for it.

How do we establish that he was drunk. Isn't this just speculation? I can't imagine a blood alcohol test would show anything after a month in the water.

Might actually want to do some research
http://www.newsweek.com/vince-viafore-kayaker-autopsy-homicide-371066
The Times says the examiner’s report lists the cause of death as drowning and says Viafore had a blood alcohol concentration of 0.066.

Legal limit in New York is .08 so you can see that it was near the limit.
At .07 (Remember these are a spectrum) - Slight impairment of balance, speech, vision, reaction time, and hearing. Euphoria. Judgment and self-control are reduced, and caution, reason and memory are impaired, .08 is legally impaired and it is illegal to drive at this level. You will probably believe that you are functioning better than you really are.

 

[Shiner]

Source. . . .Not RW fantasies!

It is a simple fact that 139 people died in the United States in 2015 in Kayaks and Canoes, most through drowning. The simple fact is that basically none except this one is assumed to be murder.
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.americ...PP-documents/USCG_Statistics_2015_partial.pdf

Do you really thing none of these were in Rec kayaks?


Don't make up stuff then.


Why? The media can run a story either way. They can run a story of either innocent woman wrongly imprisoned or evil Latvian witch.


Remember - Cock Up before Conspiracy.
How he ended up in the water, I don't think we will ever know for sure but it is fantasy in blaming somebody else for it.


Might actually want to do some research
http://www.newsweek.com/vince-viafore-kayaker-autopsy-homicide-371066
The Times says the examiner’s report lists the cause of death as drowning and says Viafore had a blood alcohol concentration of 0.066.

Legal limit in New York is .08 so you can see that it was near the limit.
At .07 (Remember these are a spectrum) - Slight impairment of balance, speech, vision, reaction time, and hearing. Euphoria. Judgment and self-control are reduced, and caution, reason and memory are impaired, .08 is legally impaired and it is illegal to drive at this level. You will probably believe that you are functioning better than you really are.

WTH? I'm not spinning anybody's fantasies. I'm talking logic and what is printed in the media. You're the one entertaining fantasy, mate. Read my post again.

The links to the articles detailing the witness reports are all here in this thread. It is "fantasy" to concoct your theory. A theory that completely disregards the witness reports. A theory that relies on illogical conclusions.

This pro innocence gig looks like woo to me. Or religion.

I didn't know they could get a blood alcohol reading off a drowned and decomposing corpse. Colour me surprised.

Please explain what exactly it is that you think I've made up.

 

[Samson]

WTH? I'm not spinning anybody's fantasies. I'm talking logic and what is printed in the media. You're the one entertaining fantasy, mate. Read my post again.

The links to the articles detailing the witness reports are all here in this thread. It is "fantasy" to concoct your theory. A theory that completely disregards the witness reports. A theory that relies on illogical conclusions.

This pro innocence gig looks like woo to me. Or religion.

I didn't know they could get a blood alcohol reading off a drowned and decomposing corpse. Colour me surprised.

Please explain what exactly it is that you think I've made up.

The pro guilt gig looks like woo to me.
Amongst other things it requires her to execute a perfect murder then tell the cops she's glad he's dead.

Tactics Angelika, tactics

 

[Shiner]

The pro guilt gig looks like woo to me.
Amongst other things it requires her to execute a perfect murder then tell the cops she's glad he's dead.

Tactics Angelika, tactics

No. It means disregarding many of the apparent facts. It means pretending that there are no witnesses. It means refusing to acknowledge the lack of logic in saying there was no visibility when there obviously was.

Those points will do for now.

I'm not even trying to make a case for guilt. I'm just trying to look at it honestly.

 

[Samson]

No. It means disregarding many of the apparent facts. It means pretending that there are no witnesses. It means refusing to acknowledge the lack of logic in saying there was no visibility when there obviously was.

Those points will do for now.

I'm not even trying to make a case for guilt. I'm just trying to look at it honestly.

I'm a moderate on pro innocence, I think she almost has a death wish herself, but the case is straightforward. If she unscrewed the plug on the island and claimed it was earlier for the cat, it is a clever plot to a perfect murder, so she would never say she's glad he's dead.
On the other hand if the cat story is true she could never expect his death to follow weeks later this way. In that scenario it seems reasonable to seem happy about his death.
Can you see what I see as a logical conundrum? That is why I think he died accidentally, then she was honest about everything including being glad how it turned out. Thus the death wish, and where she has ended up.

Personally I turn over the planning phase of a score of these cases in my mind. Jail cells are occupied by a lot of prisoners who allegedly devised ridiculous plans and behaved ridiculously afterwards. I could list them but I would be in breach of 11.

 

[Shiner]

I'm a moderate on pro innocence, I think she almost has a death wish herself, but the case is straightforward. If she unscrewed the plug on the island and claimed it was earlier for the cat, it is a clever plot to a perfect murder, so she would never say she's glad he's dead.
On the other hand if the cat story is true she could never expect his death to follow weeks later this way. In that scenario it seems reasonable to seem happy about his death.
Can you see what I see as a logical conundrum? That is why I think he died accidentally, then she was honest about everything including being glad how it turned out. Thus the death wish, and where she has ended up.

Personally I turn over the planning phase of a score of these cases in my mind. Jail cells are occupied by a lot of prisoners who allegedly devised ridiculous plans and behaved ridiculously afterwards. I could list them but I would be in breach of 11.

I can see your point, mate. Clear as day. I agree with you that murder is hard to imagine in these circumstances. Your post doesn't address the one of mine that you quoted. I've noticed both yourself and DF doing this.

How do you rationalize the rejecting of major parts of the story. I get that they don't fit the pro innocence narrative. I don't get how you expect to be taken seriously if this is how you discuss. (Not aimed entirely at you, Samson. )

 

[Samson]

I can see your point, mate. Clear as day. I agree with you that murder is hard to imagine in these circumstances. Your post doesn't address the one of mine that you quoted. I've noticed both yourself and DF doing this.

How do you rationalize the rejecting of major parts of the story. I get that they don't fit the pro innocence narrative. I don't get how you expect to be taken seriously if this is how you discuss. (Not aimed entirely at you, Samson. )

Is this how you are thinking?
1. At some stage she removed the plug, if on Bannerman's guilty as charged,.

I would agree with this.

2. Removed earlier at home.
Paddling back she sees him sinking, recalls the plug she unscrewed, knows he is a goner if she just does nothing or helps him along by taking paddle, not phoning and so on, all as witnessed.
Guilty as charged.

I see that as complex, and like I have said, a little like the Gable Tostee. From my perspective if I had been Viafore and survived, I think I would have a very clear idea whether she was happy to see me drown out there.

I just don't know, so I am a kind of moderate, and so support RW with some of his points. I think he is an honest contributor.
However, ultimately I would never prosecute except on the premise:

She unscrewed the plug on the island.

ETA a third possibility,
She unscrewed the plug as she said, hoped he would never notice, and watched him launch in rough seas from Bannerman and deliberately withheld that knowledge, hoping he would sink.
Yeah, dodgy girl friend there.

 

[Desert Fox]

WTH? I'm not spinning anybody's fantasies. I'm talking logic and what is printed in the media. You're the one entertaining fantasy, mate. Read my post again.

The links to the articles detailing the witness reports are all here in this thread. It is "fantasy" to concoct your theory. A theory that completely disregards the witness reports. A theory that relies on illogical conclusions.

This pro innocence gig looks like woo to me. Or religion.

I didn't know they could get a blood alcohol reading off a drowned and decomposing corpse. Colour me surprised.

Please explain what exactly it is that you think I've made up.

Is there a single safety rule with respect to kayaking that Vincent Viafore did not violate? Do you really think all of the standard kayaking safety rules are there for no reason?

Somehow you seem to think that none of those hundred and twenty or so drownings last year in kayaks / canoes are not in rec kayaks?

You have read / heard the testimony of kayak instructors who have said that they should not have been in those types of kayaks in that weather? Apparently they have all been paid off to say so?

Apparently RW playing around a little in a kayak is more valuable than them?

Interesting, very interesting. . . .

Let us assume that the police / prosecutors actually reported what the witnesses said, and there are plenty of examples of both stretching what they heard or even eliciting completely false information.

Now, what is the scientific position on eye witness testimony? Doesn't science consider it to be the least reliable form of evidence? You do know that 70% of DNA exoneration involve faulty eye witness testimony according to the innocence project, don't you?

I rest my case!

 

[Desert Fox]

The pro guilt gig looks like woo to me.
Amongst other things it requires her to execute a perfect murder then tell the cops she's glad he's dead.

Tactics Angelika, tactics

29% of DNA exoneration involve false confessions according to the innocence project.

 

[Shiner]

Hilarious. Two for the price of one.

I don't rest much at all on RW's experiments. I don't need to. I think it's great that he went to the lengths he did to show how you guys live in denial.

I merely mention it because he did go to the trouble of demonstration. As I said in my first post, it is/was obvious to me that the removal of the plug could/would cause the sinking of the kayak in the right (wrong) conditions.

I also saw RW explain that at least one of the "expert witnesses" did experiments that proved nothing. He made accusations of it being a defence witness setup. The truth of that is irrelevant. The practicality of the experiment is relevant.

As I said already. You guys cherry pick to suit your confirmation bias.

I ask again, Desert Fox, what is it that you accused me of making up?

 

[Shiner]

The pro guilt gig looks like woo to me.
Amongst other things it requires her to execute a perfect murder then tell the cops she's glad he's dead.

Tactics Angelika, tactics

No it doesn't, and I saw this explained to you earlier. If it doesnt work, it's a non issue.

"Oh, we must remember to check those!"

All this other stuff ..."repeated attempts increase chances of being caught...."

It's woo. It's a belief system. It's adding whatever fluff you want to your preconceived notion that a woman who confessed on video, didn't really mean it.

You come to this conclusion from reading a few quotes in a news article, and then adding your belief system to it. It's backward.

I came here saying she's guilty. I explained my reasoning. I even conferred that the accident scenario is plausible. I can even say that the likelihood of conviction is slim from what I know of the case.

Do I know anything? Nope. Same as you. We take what we read and watch, which has been thoughtfully edited more for fitting between "sponsors messages" than for any journalistic integrity based reasons. Then we apply our own logic.

I'm seeing the alleged plot to be very hard to prove. I'm not seeing why the police and prosecution would push for a conviction if they just made stuff up. I'm not seeing why thay would just make stuff up. I see the automatic assumption that they have as "woo".

 

[RWVBWL]

Euphoric?

29% of DNA exoneration involve false confessions according to the innocence project.

Ah,
I luv the pro-innocence False Confession theory...

Let's have a look inside the Interrogation Room,
it's Angelika + "Donnie", the NYSP Investigator that Angelika thought was "cute" when she 1st saw him, even told him so?!? Heck Angelika supposedly tried to bribe NYSP Investigator Donald DeQuarto with, err give him a 'gift card', a hand carved figurine too, and even wanted a ride home with him from the Montgomery Barracks one night instead of having to ride home with Vinny's sister. Freak.

Who?

+

True or False?

Next,
The Text to Barbara Gottlock:

True or False?

Next,
The Waves:

True or False?

Next,
Euphoric:

True or False?

Let's examine some of the False Confession that Desert Fox keeps harping about, ok?
Here's a snippet:

And Graswald admitted that she often felt trapped in the relationship, sometimes wishing Viafore was dead:

Investigator 2: Why did you want him to die? How could you best put it?

Angelika Graswald: I wanted to be free.

"I wanted to be free." As startling as that admission was, Angelika made even more disturbing comments to investigators:


Investigator 2: And you feel happy --

Angelika Graswald: Yes.

Investigator2: --- and relieved that it happened? That he's dead?

Angelika Graswald: Yes.

Investigator: When you watched him in the water, was a part of you sayin', "My worries are goin' away now, and I'm free."

Angelika Graswald: Yeah.

Investigator: And were you almost--

Angelika Graswald: Euphoric.

Investigator: Euphoric that he was--

Angelika Graswald: Yes.

Investigator: --gonna be gone.

Angelika Graswald: I just -- I was ... [unintelligible]

Investigator: You felt that way?

Angelika Graswald: Yes. I still do.
Link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrogation-video-raises-key-questions-in-new-york-kayak-murder-case/

 

[Shiner]

I don't believe that she was coerced into making those statements, but I don't believe what's quoted above mentions murder either.

She could just be describing how she felt while watching an accident unfold.

What's with the dick who supposedly got the confessions on the island? What detective doesn't carry a voice recorder. It's a basic on phones these days.