Abortion: My personal experience

[Chaos]

Current sociobiological explanations would be that controlling base drives is a powerful means of controlling people. If you control sex, reproduction, consumption, etc., you can keep your followers from questioning your authority. Extremes include cults like Moonies and Hare Krishna and mainstream organizations like many Islamic theocracies.

Remember "1984"? The Party condemns sex, because sex is the only remaining way to have fun without The Party.

 

[MattusMaximus]

There is nothing brave about murdering one's own helpless child. This was a supreme act of cowardice, at best.

I would pay real money to see you say that straight to Fox's face, you craven coward. It's easy to be an e-thug and talk such smack when you're sitting comfortably on the other side of the Internet.

Fox, don't listen to busy-bodies like BB here. He thinks it is his business to tell everyone else what women should do with their bodies. BB and his ilk are pro-choice, so long as they get to choose for everyone else

 

[Dr. Keith]

That sounds like a tough week or so, even by your rather high standards of what is "tough". Your post highlights a lot of what is wrong with our current system and it is a shame that any citizen is treated so poorly, but even worse that a soldier should be treated that way.

Your OP has certainly changed my views on some of these "minor" laws surrounding abortion. I have a friend from school who is an activist in this field and I never really got why she was fighting so hard over such minor things. Seeing them through your eyes makes her work seem far more important.

Thank you for sharing such an intimate episode from your life.

 

[RandFan]

Remember "1984"? The Party condemns sex, because sex is the only remaining way to have fun without The Party.

Remember it well. Of course we know the representatives have lots of sex, gay and straight, with lots of partners, regardless of marital status. They don't buy that ****.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

edit: wrong thread.

 

[MatildaGage]

Thank you for sharing that story. Most people would never have the guts to do that.

I respect your choice. I am sorry you are receivng some of the remarks in this thread.

I find it crazy that the Army will not allow me to get a vasectomy because I have no children.

It is crazy as it gets.

Just for some perspective, I have serious medical issues which would put me in jeopardy and would be passed on to my child. I do not want children--never ever have. From age 12 on, I needed a medical procedure to keep me from bleeding to death from my periods but no one would do it b/c they said I might change my mind about having kids!! I offered to sign a paper or whatever, no dice. I finally had it after I was in my 40s and other medical issues, by then, ensured I would not be procreating. In my 40s!!! Meanwhile I nearly died lots of times, and my quality of life sucked....all for naught.

I wasn't on military insurance--it wasn't an insurance issue.

We have a long way to go toward actually having the choices the fundies seem to think we have.

 

[Dessi]

What about the countless abortions that occur naturally? I don't see the "anti-women" people out there protesting against Mother Nature ......

If abortion is murder then miscarriage is manslaughter, right?

 

[Leumas]

God has killed millions of babies according to the biblical saga.

• HE CAUSED HIS OWN SON to be killed so as to forgive people he could have clicked his fingers to forgive instead
• He killed millions of babies when he flooded the world
• He causes people to EAT THEIR CHILDREN for not loving him
• He TORTURED for SEVEN DAYS and then killed David’s bastard son to punish David for the sin of adultery and murder
• He killed the children of the Egyptians because the Pharaoh had his heart hardened by god himself....even the slaves' sons
• He orders the Hebrews to kill children and exterminate entire races….and he assists.
• He killed thousands of babies when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah
• He killed millions of Hebrew babies when he was REPEATEDLY and ENDLESSLY punishing them for not loving him as much as he wanted.
• He promises to kill babies To the FOURTH GENERATION of people who don't love him as much as he desires
• He lets millions of babies die before they come to term
• He lets millions of babies die from diseases and hunger
• He lets millions of babies be born with congenital and genetic diseases
• He ordered Abraham to kill his son.
• He let Jephthah kill his daughter to fulfill a pledge he made to him in return for winning a war where Jephthah kills babies of other people
• He killed the children of Korah for opposing Moses
• He stands idly by while millions of children are being killed annually

And the list goes on and on ad nauseam.

Don't forget the story of Job. God allows, amongst other tragedies, Job's children to be killed just in order to win a bet with Satan.

Yes...that is a great one too.... I forgot that one..... but I am sure there are NUMEROUS other such verses that we both forgot.

Any person that wants to argue that babies' lives are so sacrosanct in YHWH's book only has to read the purported 2^nd commandment

Exodus 20:5

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;​

Or these ADMISSIONS of infanticide by the millions.

Numbers 8:17

For all the firstborn of the children of Israel [are] mine, [both] man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.​

Leviticus 26:21-29
And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your [high] ways shall be desolate. And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of [my] covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. [And] when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver [you] your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied. And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

 

[foxholeatheist]

Wow, thanks so much for all your support and kind words. I was not expecting nearly so much interest with our experience.

The sort of detail that makes all the difference.

Anyway, at least you didn't have to deal with protesters out front calling your wife a bitch-whore and spitting on her (like Jesus would).

Yeah, for some reason I like to point out odd details that stick in my head. It was an interesting juxtaposition and an attempt to sort of lighten the narrative.

But yeah, they had to play something right?

<snip>
Oh, and a word of advice -- whenever someone comes barging into a thread like an elephant in a glass store, full of emotion or political fury and apparently incapable of empathy (like Bob in this thread or JihadJane in the thread about the US special forces helicopter crashing)... just put him or her on ignore. Responding encourages such behaviour, while ignoring the responsible party teaches him/her (yeah, I'm an optimist) that being a **** isn't tolerated and will only lead to everyone giving you a cold shoulder.

When, or if, Bob matures enough to partake in such a discussion with a minimum of empathy and understanding, I will take him off of ignore. Until then,

Please don't feed the troll.​

Roger wilco. I fully expected at least some of that but a little bit of pixilated abuse is to be expected.

I've never used the ignore function. I dig free speech and the more it offends me the more I believe it needs protection. But you are correct, while Bob is more than right to express himself in whatever vile and ignorant way he wishes, that does not make his comments worthy of consideration.

Well noted.

That sounds like a tough week or so, even by your rather high standards of what is "tough". Your post highlights a lot of what is wrong with our current system and it is a shame that any citizen is treated so poorly, but even worse that a soldier should be treated that way.

<snip>

This surprised me as well. IRL I don't play the Soldier card a whole lot. It is abused quite often. Granted, much of the silly 'WE SUPPORT OUR TROOPS' attitude has dropped, I figured that with Tricare, hey, we're golden. For the price it cannot be beat. But again, the American public would not be happy with the government footing the bill for abortion. These are the abortion issues that never even crossed my mind.

Prohibitively high abortion costs will kill women. I never understood that until I had to pay.

This was a little beyond simple tough. Tough is sheer bloody mindedness (I believe I am using that term correctly). But when it's your wife it's not your emotions which have to be brought under control but her's. Being a chick and all I reckon she took the whole ordeal on a different level than I. Yeah, I deployed, have been shot at and blown up and got the medals to prove it... But she's the freaking tough one.

I would pay real money to see you say that straight to Fox's face, you craven coward. It's easy to be an e-thug and talk such smack when you're sitting comfortably on the other side of the Internet.

Fox, don't listen to busy-bodies like BB here. He thinks it is his business to tell everyone else what women should do with their bodies. BB and his ilk are pro-choice, so long as they get to choose for everyone else

I fully expected at least a few comments along the lines of his. That's OK, here's more than entitled to them.

As for saying anything to my face, he'd have little to worry about, at least as far as a physical reaction. I hate the idea of violence used to make a point about another's opinion or worse, to silence them. I do doubt that, despite all his bravery talk, he would have the brass to do so.

This I wholeheartedly agree with. The problem is that each law is separate, so none can be successfully challenged and overruled because the individual law does not place an undue burden on access, but when they start piling up, the total effect does create the burden.

I also have one question for you. In your OP, you mentioned that this was discussed at length before the situation arose (good thinking ahead planning btw) but you did not go into details. You mentioned that the primary consideration was that you could not afford a child and did not feel that you would be good parents. May I ask why you decided that having the child, then putting it up for adoption was not your ultimate decision? (yes, I know this is personal and I will not be upset if you decline to answer, but you seemed to have thought this through and based on only the very limited information that you have so far provided, it seems like this may have been a viable alternative)

Wow, to me it seems most folks have to justify why they think they need to reproduce so badly rather than the other way around.

First of all, financially we are not ready. Granted, we are better off than most first time parents. However most of them are not ready either however let some silly notion of passing their genes on override their common sense. I have never felt the need for my genes to carry on.

We used to do quite a bit of volunteering at orphanages when we lived in Korea. There are millions of great kids that could use, rather need a good stable home. Even in the US, there are plenty of children out there that need good homes.

Better than half of all marriages fail and mine is not immune. Granted, Mrs. Fox is awesome, really awesome (she can play Orion front to back on bass) but there is a better than 50% chance of us splitting up. Maybe that sounds odd and fatalistic but being in the military has taught me to plan for events that have a greater than 50% chance of occurring. The odds are stacked against us, being a young couple and just getting into it and all.

I am too immature and selfish. There, I said it. I like spending money on guns and guitars. A kid would be a fundamental life change that I am not mature enough for. It is not that I am not willing to give up 'things', it is that I would not want to deny my hypothetical child of a darned thing in the whole world which would be tough to do.

I am an Air Force brat and grew up in a little bit of everywhere. Every 2 years we had to move and I had to go and make a whole new set of 'friends'. My folks had me too young as well. I have always yearned for real roots, an answer when folks ask 'Where are you from?'. While I believe I had valuable experiences and am grateful that I was accidentally born into this situation I don't think it would be fair to the kid, given a choice.

My dad was/is an alcoholic that could get a little rough. And so was his dad. And so was his. He's mellow now and we have reconciled and hasn't really gotten out of hand since I learned to hit back but I know that I see a lot of my father in me at times.

Mrs. Fox and I thought that if she carried the kid to term her mamma juices would be flowing making letting go of the little sprog exponentially more difficult than terminating the pregnancy before it was even recognizably human. While we're both very sensible we also allow for batcrap crazy emotions to guide decision making and cloud rational thinking.

Among myriad reasons.

It is one thing to think out a problem rationally. It is a whole different beast to deal with it, really deal with it and face the consequences. One oft purported myth of the pro-life camp is that abortion would be freely used as a birth control method or is done simply out of laziness. Not the case by a long shot.

 

[Leumas]

If abortion is murder then miscarriage is manslaughter, right?

NO...no..no....it is MURDER...but by God....it is God who MURDERED the miscarried baby....everything happens as he wills it ...no?

 

[Minoosh]

But yeah, they had to play something right?

Not in my opinion but I've noticed many people seem to want noise blaring at them 24/7

However most of them are not ready either however let some silly notion of passing their genes on override their common sense.

I don't think it's a silly notion - the drive to reproduce is strong. They may not be ready, but it's the most natural thing in the world to want kids. Unfortunately the ones who do question it are less likely to pass their skeptical genes along.

So you made reference to a vasectomy and I'm wondering, did you have it after the abortion? Was there a reason you didn't do it before?

FYI, the "morning after pill" ("Plan B") option is not the same as the abortion pill. That combo is, I believe, readily available and cheap and maybe even OTC. Though being in a rural area doesn't help.

 

[KingMerv00]

NO...no..no....it is MURDER...but by God....it is God who MURDERED the miscarried baby....everything happens as he wills it ...no?

Woah there. Let me play God's advocate for a moment.

First off, God has soverign immunity and has not been properly served with the appropriate court papers. I move for dismissal.

Furthermore, voluntary manslaugher is that the killing of another while in the "heat of passion" after "sufficient provocation" from the victim. Maybe God caught the baby sleeping with his wife or something. God may be willing to accept a plea to a lesser offense. His grossly negligent design of the universe caused the death so I recommend involuntary manslaughter.

In closing, why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

(It's not plagiarism if it is funny.)

 

[dirtywick]

Although I understand that this is an emotional process, and because of that even minor inconveniences can become exacerbated due to that. But comparing this to other medical procedures, I don't see any more minor inconveniences than I'd expect from an equally invasive procedure.

Not trying to downplay what happened. As you said it wasn't easy, but I suspect much of that has to do with the nature of the procedure.

After a bit of searching I found that many states that you don't need to go in person the first visit, only that you'd call to get the information 24 hours before your appointment and sign a consent form you'd bring with you or fax to the clinic.

The ultrasound is IMO the only part that I find totally unnecessary.

 

[RandFan]

Although I understand that this is an emotional process, and because of that even minor inconveniences can become exacerbated due to that. But comparing this to other medical procedures, I don't see any more minor inconveniences than I'd expect from an equally invasive procedure.

Perhaps, could you provide us an example. I honestly don't know.

 

[cwalner]

Wow, to me it seems most folks have to justify why they think they need to reproduce so badly rather than the other way around.

...

Sorry, you took it that way, it was not how I meant it. I was thinking more along the lines of you being familiar with orphanages, and presumably adoptions, why not allow something that is not, for you and your wife, so positive bring immense joy into somebody else's life, as it seemed you could financially afford the pregnancy, but not the child.

You did answer my question, and, as I guessed, you had considered this and your reasons for rejecting it make sense. Thank you for your honesty in answering. I know this is an argument often made by anti-abortionists and wanted to hear from somebody who seemed to think this through, the reasons why it was not as viable as they claim.

 

[dirtywick]

I believe 24 hours and two visits is actually pretty quick compared to other procedures. For instance, if you went to the dentist for a simple cavity you'd have one visit for X-rays and the poking around, and if you're lucky 24 hours later you could have it filled.

When I broke a tooth earlier this year I had to go to the dentist to have him take a look, decide I needed a crown, and the next day have an appointment to actually have the temporary and the imprint, and three weeks later to have the crown actually put on. I've had another crown where I've had to drive to a bigger city because my dentist didn't have the experience or equipment to do a root canal.

I was also diagnosed with dysphagia years ago. Not counting the diagnosis time, I first had to get a consultation with a GI clinic, then a consultation with a surgeon, then a scope to confirm from that surgeon, and finally I got the surgery in a bigger city from a surgeon that knew the procedure they recommended. That took quite a while.

Of course, I didn't have a particular emotional investment in any of this so it wasn't particularly bothersome. It's been my experience that it's pretty rare outside of an emergency situation (which you're still going to have a follow-up with your regular doctor as most of the time an emergency is temporary fix to remove immediate danger) that things are done that quickly or in a single visit.

 

[RandFan]

I believe 24 hours and two visits is actually pretty quick compared to other procedures. For instance, if you went to the dentist for a simple cavity you'd have one visit for X-rays and the poking around, and if you're lucky 24 hours later you could have it filled.

When I broke a tooth earlier this year I had to go to the dentist to have him take a look, decide I needed a crown, and the next day have an appointment to actually have the temporary and the imprint, and three weeks later to have the crown actually put on. I've had another crown where I've had to drive to a bigger city because my dentist didn't have the experience or equipment to do a root canal.

I was also diagnosed with dysphagia years ago. Not counting the diagnosis time, I first had to get a consultation with a GI clinic, then a consultation with a surgeon, then a scope to confirm from that surgeon, and finally I got the surgery in a bigger city from a surgeon that knew the procedure they recommended. That took quite a while.

Of course, I didn't have a particular emotional investment in any of this so it wasn't particularly bothersome. It's been my experience that it's pretty rare outside of an emergency situation (which you're still going to have a follow-up with your regular doctor as most of the time an emergency is temporary fix to remove immediate danger) that things are done that quickly or in a single visit.

Thanks

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This is actually interesting. Is it because abortions aren't criminal by secular societal standards (i.e. "the crime of murder in most western jurisdictions"), or is there a theological basis for this in Mormonism?

I specified "western jurisdictions", because the church is aware, as we all are, that there are regimes whose court systems aren't quite as "refined" as ours are. Other than that, court convictions are used as they are a good yardstick for determining when there is sufficient cause to carry out church discipline and it keeps us from having to form a redundant church legal system to hear out every accusation.

I brought up the Mormon churches stance on abortion because, with Bob and I both being Mormons and Bob being the one talking about "murder" and "standing before God", it seemed appropriate. Bob is saying it's murder while the real answer is "not quite". There are in fact other transgressions which also result in automatic excommunication before abortion. Rape is one, that's kind of obvious. Specific cases of theft are another, primarily those involving a church officer stealing from the church itself (financial corruption scandals having plagued other religions so often, it's one thing that the church doesn't mess around with).

As to the theological issues, there is a passage in the Book of Mormon wherein Jesus is communicating with a prophet in the Americas on the eve of the first Christmas, saying "Tomorrow, come I into the world". So how is Jesus is talking to a guy in the Yucatan Peninsula while at the same time, he is just completing his gestation on the far side of the planet? Taking note of this, the Second Counselor of the Church (the number 3 man in the church hierarchy), J. Reuben Clark once said "But it seems possible that the spirit may not be present in the embryo till at least shortly before birth, whether the birth be regular or premature."

Additionally, the church accepts its members having abortions in cases of rape, incest or where the pregnancy places the life and health of the mother at risk.

 

[RandFan]

As to the theological issues, there is a passage in the Book of Mormon wherein Jesus is communicating with a prophet in the Americas on the eve of the first Christmas, saying "Tomorrow, come I into the world". So how is Jesus is talking to a guy in the Yucatan Peninsula while at the same time, he is just completing his gestation on the far side of the planet? Taking note of this, the Second Counselor of the Church (the number 3 man in the church hierarchy), J. Reuben Clark once said "But it seems possible that the spirit may not be present in the embryo till at least shortly before birth, whether the birth be regular or premature."

(emphasis mine) Which is why there is that whole "milk before meat" thing. Remember Church leaders have taught that interracial marriage is a sin. *Being Mormon will change a person's skin color. Black skin was a curse having to do with the pre-existence. Adam was god. A person who committed murder or adultery had to be killed to go to heaven.

There's more, a lot more. Look, just because it make sense in your head or at church doesn't mean it makes sense out in the real world. Out here it sounds a lot like the other quaint mythology of Catholics or Moonies or Muslims or anyone. Just because some human is called a Church leader doesn't make that idea rational.

*During the same message Kimball referred to a 16-year-old Indian girl who was both LDS and "several shades lighter than her parents..." He went on to say, "These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated."

 

[Leumas]

Woah there. Let me play God's advocate for a moment.

First off, God has soverign immunity and has not been properly served with the appropriate court papers. I move for dismissal.

Furthermore, voluntary manslaugher is that the killing of another while in the "heat of passion" after "sufficient provocation" from the victim. Maybe God caught the baby sleeping with his wife or something. God may be willing to accept a plea to a lesser offense. His grossly negligent design of the universe caused the death so I recommend involuntary manslaughter.

In closing, why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

(It's not plagiarism if it is funny.)

I vote GUILTY.....