A Lucid Proposal For A Preliminary Test

I'd be far more disappointed if this applicant wasn't tested simply because this issue couldn't be surmounted.

The requested change is perfectly reasonable, anyway - if the JREF thinks it is important to be protected from litigation, then why should this protection not be provided to the applicant as well?
 
Even better: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#2.6

"[FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica]It all comes down to the very nature of a challenge. It's not a contest; there are not two parties competing for the same prize. It's a challenge. It's someone who, as a result of extensive experience, doesn't believe you can do what you say you can do, daring you to do what you say you can do. It's a dare. It's not at all a friendly agreement. It's an adversarial arrangement, and because of that, the JREF sees no reason to change the rules for its adversaries."[/FONT][/FONT]
 
I'd be far more disappointed if this applicant wasn't tested simply because this issue couldn't be surmounted.
Prepare to be disappointed.

When you stand back, there's nothing too special about this applicant. He said his application was submitted with changes to the rules. I believe him. If true, he's no better than countless other applicants who cannot, or will not, follow simple directions.

My question is for the professor. When your challenge application is returned to you with a rejection stamp, will you continue to follow the advice of your lawyer and insist that this added wording remain in your application, or will you submit a new application, minus the added wording?
 
Mental Professor, I live in the DC area. I'd certainly be willing to observe you performing an informal run of this or any test. I am not a formal member of any sceptic organization, however, so I am not likely to forward your claim with JREF.
 
The requested change is perfectly reasonable, anyway - if the JREF thinks it is important to be protected from litigation, then why should this protection not be provided to the applicant as well?

On first look I thought the same thing- if JREF is insulated from being sued, why not the appliant as well. But then I also considered, if the JREF is putting up a million dollars, then why shouldn't the applicant as well.
 
Well, not quite the same thing. The chances of the JREF paying the million are pretty much 0, as this would require approx 3000 years of human inquiry to be re-written.

Litigation, on the other hand, can happen at a drop of a hat - and the awards and costs can well exceed a million bucks. I say protect all parties involved so no-one has to worry about the whole distasteful activity.

This being said, as Dumballover said, Randi's challenge, Randi's rules. And I would be interested to see if the applicant reapplies minus the added wording if he is rejected outright.
 
Liability and Adhession

I've been lurking for well over a year, and this topic has compelled me to register, mostly because of this:

The application has been notarized and it’s ready to go. I did make the following change to Paragraph 7 on the advice of my attorney:
In this litigious society, if one party gives up rights, then BOTH parties should give up the same rights. I'll finish my description and my protocol proposals and have it in the mail by Monday.

I kept lurking, hoping that there was a lawyer on the thread who would call BS. But since now, many days later, nobody has, I will do so.
Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I do work in a law firm. I see dozens, maybe hundreds, of contracts cross my desk every week, and since I'm a geek and want to go to law school, I read pretty much every one, so I like to think that I've picked up a thing or two.

One thing I've learned is there are many different types of contracts, and they all tend to include different types of language, clauses, and terms. Relevant to this discussion is a type known as a "Contract of Adhesion." This is a contract that is non-negotiable; you either take it or leave it. While generally frowned upon by courts, Contracts of Adhesion have been held as valid, but are subject to a higher standard of review than a contract where parties are standing in more equal positions. But I digress, as I am prone to do, this is not my point.

My point is this:
If you consulted an attorney, he would (should?) have told you that this was clearly a Contract of Adhesion. He then would have (should have?) told you that you were wasting your time trying to change the terms. Mutual limitation of liability, like you want here, pretty much never appears in these kind of contracts. Why? Because of the unequal negotiating positions intrinsic to Contracts of Adhesion, the superior party will never accept the term (barring incompetence).
Furthermore, he probably would have advised you that since this was a Contract of Adhesion, it would most likely be to your advantage to not try and change the terms, as more avenues would be open to you if you ever had to ask for a judgment of invalidity (specifically the 'I didn't understand it' argument, as well as the 'unsophisticated parties' possibility demolished by consulting council).


Thus, in my not-professional opinion, if you had really consulted a lawyer on this matter he would have told you this, and not the idealistic, but legally-worthless:

"In this litigious society, if one party gives up rights, then BOTH parties should give up the same rights."

Had you consulted a lawyer, you would not have tried to waste your time like this. I can only conclude one of two things. Either:

A. You're lying about consulting council, and merely want an excuse to insert a provision you think will protect you from litigation (and probably wouldn't, given that the JREF wouldn't have to file suit in Florida, but again, I digress). Either you think you need this shield because you're planning fraud, or you simply like to play amateur lawyer, as I do.

or B. I'm completely wrong, and, for whatever reason (maybe he's a friend you asked casually?) your lawyer actually did tell you to try and get mutual limitation of liability. In that case, your lawyer, in my opinion, didn't put much thought into it.

I apologize that I must question your word, but I honestly think A is more likely.

Please note: This is a personal opinion; nothing in the above constitutes legal advice. Etc. Etc. So on and so forth.
 
Well said, Alex. I suspect conclusion A more accurately reflects the true state of affairs. This professor might just hold a PhD in chain-yanking.

Conjecture, speculation, etc.

We will know in a short while what Mental Professor brings to the table. Patience people, patience.
 
I pass no judgment as to the Professor's supernatural abilities.
I just don't think he's consulted a lawyer, and if I'm right, and that was a misrepresentation, that makes me nervous.

EDIT: For clarity.
 
Last edited:
Alex_Turner said:
...
Had you consulted a lawyer, you would not have tried to waste your time like this. I can only conclude one of two things. Either:

A. You're lying about consulting council, and merely want an excuse to insert a provision you think will protect you from litigation (and probably wouldn't, given that the JREF wouldn't have to file suit in Florida, but again, I digress). Either you think you need this shield because you're planning fraud, or you simply like to play amateur lawyer, as I do.

or B. I'm completely wrong, and, for whatever reason (maybe he's a friend you asked casually?) your lawyer actually did tell you to try and get mutual limitation of liability. In that case, your lawyer, in my opinion, didn't put much thought into it.

I apologize that I must question your word, but I honestly think A is more likely.

Please note: This is a personal opinion; nothing in the above constitutes legal advice. Etc. Etc. So on and so forth.

I pass no judgment as to the Professor's abilities.
...

What am I missing, Alex_Turner?
 
We will know in a short while what Mental Professor brings to the table.
With all due respect, Gzuz, it seems we know an awful lot at present. We know precisely what his claim is. We know generally how he plans to demonstrate his abilities. Heck, how many other past applicants can this be said of at this early stage?

And we also know he said he sumitted an application that changes the terms of the rules. This is important. I would like to see this guy tested as much as anyone. I feel he won't be tested if he submits applications that are unacceptable. The posts on protocol have been enlightening. But the second I read about his addition to the rules, a huge red flag went up. By adding his own language to the rules, he, in essence, is posing a challenge to Randi. And if I know Randi, (AND I DON'T!) Randi won't be challenged.

I would like the Mental Professor to reconsider and submit an application that offers a far more hopeful outcome for testing.
 
With all due respect, Gzuz, it seems we know an awful lot at present. We know precisely what his claim is. We know generally how he plans to demonstrate his abilities. Heck, how many other past applicants can this be said of at this early stage?

And we also know he said he sumitted an application that changes the terms of the rules. This is important. I would like to see this guy tested as much as anyone. I feel he won't be tested if he submits applications that are unacceptable. The posts on protocol have been enlightening. But the second I read about his addition to the rules, a huge red flag went up. By adding his own language to the rules, he, in essence, is posing a challenge to Randi. And if I know Randi, (AND I DON'T!) Randi won't be challenged.

I would like the Mental Professor to reconsider and submit an application that offers a far more hopeful outcome for testing.

Dumb All Over, you claim to know "an awful lot", yet you do not skimp on the speculation about what could, would and should happen.

Patience, lad, patience.

Also, if you "would like the Mental Professor to reconsider and submit an application that offers a far more hopeful outcome for testing", politeness requires you address this to him, not me.

Speculation will most likely not change the outcome of Mental Professor's application.
We can and will offer our help if he inquires about specifica concerning the Challenge. Most of us did so.

So far, so good. He said he sent his application. It will take time to process. The JREF will let us know when something important happens. Count on it.

Patience, lad, patience.
 
Dear Mr. Mental Professor,

Would it be too informal of me to call you Mental? I'm sorry. Forget it.

I fear your application is in grave jeopardy of being rejected. I am of but a small minority who believes this. It would be neato to see your claim tested. Please, would you consider sending a new application that does not alter the original wording of the rules?

XXXOOO
Dumb All Over
 
The Attorney thing...

I've been working on a post describing what we do in a lot more detail. It explains what actually happens and how we made the discovery. It's not finished, but I want to respond to the attorney thing.

If you consulted an attorney, he would (should?) have told you that this was clearly a Contract of Adhesion.

The attorney works nearby and is a friend. The notary works in his office.

The only thing I discussed with him was the liability clause. I did not tell him what it was for or why I was doing it. (We haven't told anyone in our social circle about this. This is still in the testing stage and that is why we've started here so early in our discovery.) I will take the full contract to him and get his opinion. Thanks for the heads up and taking the time to post!

In the meantime, I received this as an e-mail:

We cannot accept any changes to the rules.

Jeff Wagg

JREF


Was I surprised? A little. I understand them not wanting to make an exception and setting precedent. But my application is VERY different from every other one I’ve read. I asked for something reasonable and they shot it down without adequate consideration. It is definitely fodder for the ones that question Mr. Randi’s motives.

If Ms. Browne accepted the invitation to be tested on Larry King, would Randi refuse if Sylvia didn’t sign a piece of paper first? How would that look? If Uri showed up in sunny Florida with a spoon in his hand, would Randi say ‘get lost’ if he didn’t sign the agreement? I understood that Randi used to walk around with a check in his pocket and accepted ‘testees’ on the spot. What happened to his curiosity?

I have always admired JREF and its founder. There’s so much B.S. that is accepted as gospel in the media. We need this type of organization to point out the fiction that is touted as fact. But I have lost respect for their process and the flaunting of their challenge. I only asked for what they themselves requested - protection from unnecessary litigation. It is fair, it is reasonable and it should be granted.

I’ll talk to my attorney in the morning.

In the meantime, I’ll still be pursuing more testing and I’ll keep everyone posted. Thanks for the support!
 
The only thing I discussed with him was the liability clause. I did not tell him what it was for or why I was doing it. (We haven't told anyone in our social circle about this. This is still in the testing stage and that is why we've started here so early in our discovery.) I will take the full contract to him and get his opinion. Thanks for the heads up and taking the time to post!

Ok, that's a reasonable answer; I'm satisfied.

I only asked for what they themselves requested - protection from unnecessary litigation. It is fair, it is reasonable and it should be granted.

That's part of the reason I doubted you'd spoken to a lawyer.It isn't legally reasonable in this situation. The JREF is negotiating from a vastly superior position. Unless you possess actual paranormal ability, they hold all the cards. Why would they give up a few of them? It's patently unreasonable for them to do so.
 
Mental Professor, you may have reasons to believe your "application is VERY different from every other one I’ve read".
However, because of what is stated here, http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#2.7 you should not feel disappointed. It's an integral part of the JREF Challenge, hence the mentioning in the Challenge FAQ - which you should have read.

Mental Professor, I should tell you that with every mention of the words "lawyer", "attorney", "liability clause", etc., your credibility suffers an enormous blow.
Why?
Because every Applicant or potential Applicant who mentioned said words has fizzled with his claim, or weaseled out of protocol negotiations or simply wasted the Forum Member's and often JREF Staff's time with complaints about "legal issues". Sometimes weeks and months of said time and effort.

If you want to pursue the path of seeking an attorney, fine.

A lot of the Forum Members deeply wish you would instead invest this energy in the testing of your "ability" and in defining a satisfactory protocol.
 
A lot of the Forum Members deeply wish you would instead invest this energy in the testing of your "ability" and in defining a satisfactory protocol.

I plan to continue, but not with JREF. I will keep you posted and will hook up with the locals for a demo.

I'm not looking for a way to get out of testing. I know too many people that have been sued for ridiculous reasons, but they had to defend themselves anyway. I think it is only fair that EVERYONE is protected. If it wasn't an issue, then Randi would not have put it in the application. HE thinks that it is important enough to address it.

I'll post more tomorrow.

Drew
 

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