A Lucid Proposal For A Preliminary Test

The fat lady is singing. I agree it is naive to imagine he will re-apply and agree to test his claim. No. Tomorrow we'll get some lame post explaining why he won't go through with this. It will have to do with legalities and such. And some people will waste a lot of time debating him.
Time to move on. NEXT APPLICANT!
 
I plan to continue, but not with JREF. I will keep you posted and will hook up with the locals for a demo.
Another applicant faling by the wayside even before the testing. Amazing!
The excuse that Randi might sue the hell out of you is the dumbest I have ever heard.
 
SNIP
I asked for something reasonable and they shot it down without adequate consideration. It is definitely fodder for the ones that question Mr. Randi’s motives.
SNIP
But I have lost respect for their process and the flaunting of their challenge.
SNIP
No, you asked for something unreasonable, and your suggestion that it was done without adequate consideration is unfounded.
As you were well aware, no changes to the rules are allowed.

There is and was no flaunting of the challenge.
Any such suggestion is purely diversion and excuse.
How can one 'lose their respect for the process', when the process IS SOUND, IS PERFECTLY WELL DOCUMENTED, AND HAS NOT CHANGED ???

I personally will be very dissapointed if you wimp out like all the rest.
 
It does not take much to work out the mental professor's idea. Pity he did not stick with them. He would be one of the very few people who could have got three statements.
 
Mental Professor said:
But my application is VERY different from every other one I’ve read.

Only because you show unprecedented signs of preparedness. It is true that most applicants do not put much thought into the wording of their claim, but the fact that you chose to do so does not entitle you to special treatment.

I asked for something reasonable and they shot it down without adequate consideration.

The "no exceptions" rule is in the FAQ. Clearly it has been considered before.

It is definitely fodder for the ones that question Mr. Randi’s motives.

No sweat. If Randi didn't brush his teeth one morning, some kook would be crying fraud.

If Ms. Browne accepted the invitation to be tested on Larry King...

Which she did,of course. And she weasled and backed down.


I plan to continue, but not with JREF. I will keep you posted and will hook up with the locals for a demo.

Ah, good old unquestioning "locals". And demos. We all love demos. So much better than those irritating tests, with their controls and protocols.
 
The excuse that Randi might sue the hell out of you is the dumbest I have ever heard.
Unless you planned to win by cheating. Then it's probably a reasonable concern.

*Note the doughnut-sharp insinuation.
 
I don't like the good professor using the word "lucid" in the thread title. I mean, it is a strikingly lucid proposal, but "I have a bad feeling about this.":jedi:
Trust your feelings, young Ririon, let go...

So... Say I wanted to provide "fodder for the ones that question Mr. Randi’s motives"... Wouldn't a good idea be to make a surprisingly "lucid proposal" and then make some legal strawman to get it thrown out on a technicality? :(

I say: There is no professor, there is no wife, there is no telepathy, there is no freakin' spoon. Just one more woo pulling our collective legs. Feel free to prove me wrong any time, "Mental Professor".
 
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If you post again, professor, I'd like to know if adding the safeguard I mentioned in post #147 would be any problem.

The professor has requested that the sending witnesses not communicate with the receiving witnesses during the sending/receiving period. However, will there be a definite video/witness record of each of the professor's written answers as it's made, to prove what symbol he wrote down to correspond with each symbol being sent?

This would prevent anyone from claiming that he somehow discovered the symbols being sent at the end of the test, when communication between the two rooms opened up again, and managed to change his answers after the sending/receiving period, but before they were judged.

Preventing this method of cheating didn't seem to be addressed in the original protocol, other than the request that the correctness of any answers never be checked before the end of the test, which would of course facilitate this method, rather than hinder it.

The professor seemed to be very eager to eliminate any possibility of "counting," but unfortunately after I posted this, the thread got bogged down in legal points which might prevent the test, so this issue never got fully discussed.
 
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I plan to continue, but not with JREF. I will keep you posted and will hook up with the locals for a demo.

I'm not looking for a way to get out of testing. I know too many people that have been sued for ridiculous reasons, but they had to defend themselves anyway. I think it is only fair that EVERYONE is protected. If it wasn't an issue, then Randi would not have put it in the application. HE thinks that it is important enough to address it.

I'll post more tomorrow.

Drew
Remember Randi is putting a million dollars on the line, you are putting (at this stage) nothing more then an hour or two of your time.

Also I am curious about something and (I will state it clearly so there is is no confusion or concerns that I am trying to "spring a trap") a tad suspicious.

You knew the terms and conditions when you first posted here. Why have you now decided you don't want to continue with those terms? The JREF hasn't changed anything, the Challenge remains exactly the same as it was when you first said you would apply.
 
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Remember Randi is putting a million dollars on the line, you are putting (at this stage) nothing more then an hour or two of your time.
The MP may feel he could be the target of legal action since the JREF specifically wants to retain that right while he is stripped of same.
You knew the terms and conditions when you first posted here. Why have you now decided you don't want to continue with those terms? The JREF hasn't changed anything, the Challenge remains exactly the same as it was when you first said you would apply.
He did apply. His terms have been rejected.
 
I'm not looking for a way to get out of testing. I know too many people that have been sued for ridiculous reasons, but they had to defend themselves anyway. I think it is only fair that EVERYONE is protected. If it wasn't an issue, then Randi would not have put it in the application. HE thinks that it is important enough to address it.

Before trying to apply that generic statement(s) to a specific situation, it would probably be useful to research how often the JREF has been sued (or threatened with lawsuits) by (would-be) challengers and how many times the JREF has sued (or threatened lawsuits) against challengers.

It might also be useful to talk to your lawer about exactly what rights you'd be giving up and which ones are protected by the inclusion of "as far as this may be done by established statutes."

I understand them not wanting to make an exception and setting precedent. But my application is VERY different from every other one I’ve read.

But the key is still that they would be making an exception. And I think almost every challenger could make the claim that their application is Very different from the other ones.
 
The MP may feel he could be the target of legal action since the JREF specifically wants to retain that right while he is stripped of same.

He did apply. His terms have been rejected.

No he did not apply - the application for the Challenge can be found here: http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

What he did was create a new "challenge" and ask the JREF to agree to his new challenge. Since that is not what the JREF administers they obviously said "no".

When he applies as per the Challenge application then it can be said he applied and if then the JREF turns him down he can correctly state his application was turned down.

However so far he has not applied to take the "One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge".
 
Unless you planned to win by cheating. Then it's probably a reasonable concern.
Not really. All that is necessary to win the million is to perform the task specified within the agreed protocol. Nothing is said about exactly how the task is to be accomplished. It is up to the JREF to make sure that the agreed protocol is tight enough that the task can not be accomplished by non-paranormal means.

If the protocol specifies, for example, that MP correctly guesses 15 out of 20 cards correctly and he does this while following the agreed protocol, he wins no matter how he achieved it.

I can't see what possible grounds Randi could have for legal action against an applicant, unless of course the applicant were to do something like making defamatory statements about Randi after having failed.
 
Another applicant faling by the wayside even before the testing. Amazing!
The excuse that Randi might sue the hell out of you is the dumbest I have ever heard.

True...of course, it's easy to see why rule #7 exists. Randi would be up to his eyeballs in lawsuits by now, and even if we won every one of them, he would still be bankrupted by the legal fees.

It's the woos like Uri Geller, Sylvia Browne, etc., who have the deep pockets to pursue frivolous lawsuits against someone they want to silence, not Randi. The claimants have nothing to fear from him.
 
Geez, where do I start today? How about a little more detail on what’s going on. Here’s the background on how we got started in this:

Recently, my wife and I were trying some experiments with ESP symbols. We took turns being the ‘sender’ and ‘receiver’. Basically, we both were coming up with results that were no better than ‘chance’. I started recording data on the receiver’s mindset, mood, environment, etc. When I studied the results, I found no meaningful data, whether it was my wife or myself.

I then studied the sender’s states. My results as being a sender offered nothing interesting in the data. But I did notice a peculiar result when my wife was acting as a sender. On many of the occasions where I had guessed correctly, my wife stated that she had drifted into a daydream-like (lower alpha or theta) state. She compared it to reading a book and not remembering what was on the page, or driving a car and not remembering the last few miles. Kinda like hypnosis- very similar to relaxing meditation.

It seemed to only happen at the point she was changing from beta (active) to the alpha or theta state. If she was already relaxed, the results were within the realm of chance. We kept experimenting and she got very adept at relaxing and ‘coming back’ when she wished. She would focus on the symbol at the point of relaxation and my correct guesses would far exceed what could be explained by chance.

What is different when I’m ‘guessing’ correctly? Nothing. It feels the same as when I’m wrong. I am going by my intuition. It just happens that she is somehow influencing my intuition at the time. What I do know is that if I make a ‘guess’ when she is transitioning for one state to another, that ‘guess’ is far more accurate than any other time.

I also found that if I tried to think about it and not go with my gut feeling, then my success rate dropped to around 20% (chance). In other words, when I went with my intuition, I was right most of the time.

If I asked you quickly to name one of the symbols, you would come up with one. Why would you name that particular one? Something in your brain told you to select one. Our brains don’t function as a true random number generator. We make guesses based on our intuition. For example, if I asked a group of people to think of a number between 1 and 10, the largest percentage would guess ‘7’. It just ‘seems like the right one to pick’. Although it doesn’t apply to our scenario, here is a good link on intuition: http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=2349

I don’t expect people to believe us without proof. We’ve told very few people about this. We’ve done some tightly controlled experiments and the results have been impressive. I started with this forum so that I could have some rational, skeptical feedback on a testing protocol. My goal was to work backwards and figure out if there were any unconscious influences. Your input has been helpful.

The professor has requested that the sending witnesses not communicate with the receiving witnesses during the sending/receiving period. However, will there be a definite video/witness record of each of the professor's written answers as it's made, to prove what symbol he wrote down to correspond with each symbol being sent?
That’s fine! All my answers would be sealed and given to an observer BEFORE anyone started talking, the test was over, we went to another room, etc.

Ah, good old unquestioning "locals". And demos. We all love demos. So much better than those irritating tests, with their controls and protocols.
Lighten up. ‘Demos’ was a word choice. I expect any demo to have controls and protocols. If I wanted to go to some gullible group and get positive affirmations, I would have no problem finding volunteers. I’m looking at this from a scientific standpoint and not some publicity stunt. I thought JREF would be a good, objective starting point. (That, and the fact that they're offering a million bucks. :) )

The professor seemed to be very eager to eliminate any possibility of "counting," but unfortunately after I posted this, the thread got bogged down in legal points which might prevent the test, so this issue never got fully discussed.
I think you’ve brought up an excellent point and one that I’ve thought a lot about. (No, my wife and I are not counting.) I’ve even considered the possibility of it happening subconsciously but it wouldn’t explain the results we’ve had.

We’d both be having to do it simultaneously, we’d have to have a starting point and we’d have to maintain that in our heads for at least 3-40 minutes to complete the test. By eliminating the ‘received’ signal from my end I’d have no way to signal back to her. Anyone that watches our demonstration (test or whatever you want to call it) will see that it’s not what’s happening.

I’d welcome any control on the test that would disprove the counting method. What do you suggest? (I personally don’t think that it’s possible to keep an accurate count for more than a minute, much less a half-hour.) I’m happy to interact with the observers or do whatever is requested. Tell me what would work.
The excuse that Randi might sue the hell out of you is the dumbest I have ever heard.
Litigation, on the other hand, can happen at a drop of a hat - and the awards and costs can well exceed a million bucks. I say protect all parties involved so no-one has to worry about the whole distasteful activity.
Everybody sues everybody nowadays. After a recent ordeal my neighbor suffered, I saw what frivolous litigation can do. It doesn’t matter if you’re right or not, you still have to do the dance. There's an enormous incentive for JREF to see me fail, no matter what their intentions. I take them at face value, but the money involved is a major factor. I’m not an attorney. My lawyer won’t be back until after Mem. Day weekend so I will talk to him then.

Wouldn't a good idea be to make a surprisingly "lucid proposal" and then make some legal strawman to get it thrown out on a technicality?
I used the term ‘lucid’ after reading other applications. I couldn’t understand them. My goal is to be tested.
 

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