A Challenge for Oliver: This is America

[Oliver]

But he calls me "Ziggu-stein" because he's antisemitic, and so he thinks the label is an insult.

There is sniping in this forum about my origin, and me I chide Ziggurat.

Is it antisemitic?

I didn't know...

I was also wondering about that. Can someone explain what makes "Oliver-Stein" an anti-semitic word?

 

[gumboot]

I’ve opined elsewhere that a lot of latter-day anti-Americanism started in America itself, during Viet Nam. Certainly the modern American acceptance of anti-Americanism – a remarkable bowing of the head under abuse – dates from that period.

Yes, I think you could be right. Vietnam was an incredible moment in the history of democratic foreign policy. For the first time a population spoke openly against war, and for the first time a nation was incapable of waging a war because the people didn't support it.

Attitudes in the U.S. are changing, to be sure. After September 11, it strains American patience to be always and forever slanged by people who may have no familiarity at all with American desires. It’s long been the case that Americans wish to be not just liked, but loved. Beware the wrath of a nation scorned.*

I'm glad your attitude is changing. Once on a film job I met an American guy who is a bear wrangler for films and television etc. He surprised me, because he was the first genuine pleasant quietly patriotic American I had ever met. I instantly had great respect for him. As did the other members of the crew, which is a rare thing because the NZ film industry is rabidly anti-American.

(Even though we want Americans to bring all their films here)

The reason this guy was so unique is I had only ever met two types of Americans.

The first type was rabidly anti America. We'll call them the New York student, because one I knew well was from New York, and a student. From the moment they first open their mouths, they make a concerted effort to make it clear they hate the current President, they hate American culture, they hate American foreign policy, they hate guns, they hate American accents...

On it goes.

I found it unfathomable that someone could live in a country they so completely detest. I also found it incredible that someone could have no love whatsoever for a nation that had clearly provided them a free and successful life (poor Americans simply cannot afford to be in New Zealand telling me how crappy their country is).

The second type goes on the offensive. Let's call them the Miami tourist, because every American tourist from Miami seems to be like this. They anticipate your anti-Americanism, and so they come out all guns blazing, star spangled banner waving, cowboy boots, and a holstered six-shooter. Nothing is as good as American. No one could ever be as good as an American. They're aggressive and antagonistic.

This, until I met this proud but humble bear wrangler, was all I knew of Americans.

I only hope most Americans are more like the bear wrangler and less like the New York student or the Miami tourist.

As long as we’re quibbling minorly, I wonder: Is the U.S. really a young country? Few nations have operated so long under the same constitution. In terms of date of foundation, Italy is considerably younger – younger than New Zealand too, which is itself getting to be a country with a long-uninterrupted history.

I think there's two ways of looking at it. On the one hand there's how old the current government system is. But on the other hand, there's the national identity. The United Kingdom, in its current form, is only 200 years old, yet the British, to varying degrees, trace their national identity back much much further.

The governing body of Rome still uses SPQR as its identifying symbol. The revitalised Reichstag building bears the same Eagle motif that Germanic tribes took from the Romans, along with the name "Kaiser".

If you take New Zealand, we can only trace back our national identity 160 years, and indeed many European and Middle-eastern nations had sophisticated civilisations long before humans ever stepped foot on New Zealand. New Zealand did not become a sovereign nation until 1947, and it was not until 1983 that the Letters Patent first referred to New Zealand as an independent Realm.

*You’re wrong about one thing: you lot are NOT at our mercy. The 2 percent of Americans who know where New Zealand is and don’t think it’s a peninsula of the West Island love you sincerely. I for one wouldn’t wake you from the Dream of Maui for any rewards the world holds.

I have no doubt your correct, but the reality is all small countries are totally at the mercy of large countries. And I do not mean just the USA.

Firstly, we are a trading nation. Without the trade markets to China, Australia and the USA, we would shrivel up and die. Secondly, our economy is chained to the economy of larger countries.

There's the old saying "When the USA sneezes, the world catches a cold." The second part of that saying is "And small countries get pneumonia".

Being at the mercy of larger nations isn't automatically bad, of course. Most of you have prospered, and as a result we have to. And most of you have treated us very well.

But the common bond of human kind that was created in the wake of WW2 is failing. The ideals are being forgotten in the daily grind of surviving from day to day.

The "united nations" was an idea that outlasted the previous one, but ideals don't last forever. Soon it will be back to business as usual. And the smaller nations will just have to hope no one treads on us.

-Gumboot

 

[coalesce]

Gumboot: your post #349 is the reason I love this Forum so much. That type of perspective is hard to come by here in the US, and I always enjoy hearing non-American's views of America, both good and bad. Thank you for the education.

Michael

 

[Policenaut]

I was also wondering about that. Can someone explain what makes "Oliver-Stein" an anti-semitic word?

Last names ending in stein are typically jewish. He is basically calling him a jew based on his opinions.

 

[gumboot]

Gumboot: your post #349 is the reason I love this Forum so much. That type of perspective is hard to come by here in the US, and I always enjoy hearing non-American's views of America, both good and bad. Thank you for the education.

Michael

You're very welcome.

I think our story can be useful. Even the fairly moderate Anti-Americanism here in New Zealand has a long history and a complex series of causes. I see no reason to think more rabid Anti-Americanism found in some Middle Eastern countries is any less complex or entrenched. To blame it all on ten years of foreign policy seems a bit naive to me.

-Gumboot

 

[Ion]

I was also wondering about that. Can someone explain what makes "Oliver-Stein" an anti-semitic word?

It doesn't make.

It is Germanic.

In today's The San Diego Union Tribune there are pictures of world's marvel buildings like pyramids and the Eiffel Tower, and a castle from Bavaria (Germany) is being shown.
The castle has a long name that ends with stein.

Once, Ziggy-stein mentioned of Germanic ancestors.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It doesn't make.

It is Germanic.

The castle has a long name that ends with stein.

Once, Ziggy-stein mentioned of Germanic ancestors.

Schloss Neuschwanstein, which if I recall correctly, means "new swan stone castle." IIRC, there are swans on the lake near the castle. Been over a decade since I visited there.

DR

 

[Ziggurat]

Once, Ziggy-stein mentioned of Germanic ancestors.

Liar. I never said I had any Germanic ancestors, worm. But you have called me a Jew, despite not having any evidence to that effect. Let's all take a look at what you said to me in this very thread, shall we?

Because you are a neo-conservative Jew covering up reality.

Your pathetic charade of trying to deny your blatant antisemitism is getting tiresome.

 

[Ion]

Is "...neo-conservative Jew covering up reality..." anti-semitic?

That's news to me.

In U.S. stein being Jewish is a stereotype, like I pointed out.

No different than saying next Sunday and meaning next week Sunday instead of this week Sunday.
Or in competitive swimming and track mixing up 1500 meters and the mile.

With that stein I am mocking an American stereotype since U.S. Jews support the Iraq's war.

As for you never saying you have German ancestors, I think you did.

 

[Ziggurat]

As for you never saying you have German ancestors, I think you did.

So your excuse is that you're delusional, not a liar. OK, I'll buy that.

Can you find a post where I said I had German ancestors? No, you cannot. Why? Because no such post exists.

 

[Oliver]

I don't understand Ziggurat and Darth Rotor. If anyone should be ashamed of his origin, it's definitely me and Germany's Nazi-History.

So may I ask: For what reasons is it a problem at all to mention someones believe or origin?

(I honestly don't understand it)

 

[gumboot]

I don't understand Ziggurat and Darth Rotor. If anyone should be ashamed of his origin, it's definitely me and Germany's Nazi-History.

So may I ask: For what reasons is it a problem at all to mention someones believe or origin?

(I honestly don't understand it)

It is evident to most people on this thread that Ion is attempting to use Ziggurat's "Jewish-ness" or "German-ness" to dismiss his arguments without addressing them.

For this reason it is a problem.

In addition, Ion's position that Ziggurat is alternatively Jewish or German is not even based on Ziggurat's own admission, but on Ziggurat's arguments.

Thus Ion is concluding that Ziggurat has a certain ethnicity based on his posts, and is then dismissing Ziggurat's posts based on this assumed ethnicity. That's circular reasoning.

In simplistic form:

A: I like chocolate.
B: Hah! If you like chocolate you must be French. Why should we believe a Frenchie about chocolate?

-Gumboot

 

[Oliver]

It is evident to most people on this thread that Ion is attempting to use Ziggurat's "Jewish-ness" or "German-ness" to dismiss his arguments without addressing them.

For this reason it is a problem.

In addition, Ion's position that Ziggurat is alternatively Jewish or German is not even based on Ziggurat's own admission, but on Ziggurat's arguments.

Thus Ion is concluding that Ziggurat has a certain ethnicity based on his posts, and is then dismissing Ziggurat's posts based on this assumed ethnicity. That's circular reasoning.

In simplistic form:

A: I like chocolate.
B: Hah! If you like chocolate you must be French. Why should we believe a Frenchie about chocolate?

-Gumboot

I didn't follow all their argle-bargle - but I also thought that Ziggurat has strongly Pro-Israel positions. Well, I don't know for sure but he would have a hard time to claim otherwise.

Now I don't support any Name-Calling as option to circumvent an argument, but I don't know why there is so much secrecy concerning that particular issue. Feel free to say: "Shut up" if I'm asking things that "shouldn't be asked" - whatever this means.

 

[gumboot]

I didn't follow all their argle-bargle - but I also thought that Ziggurat has strongly Pro-Israel positions. Well, I don't know for sure but he would have a hard time to claim otherwise.

Now I don't support any Name-Calling as option to circumvent an argument, but I don't know why there is so much secrecy concerning that particular issue. Feel free to say: "Shut up" if I'm asking things that "shouldn't be asked" - whatever this means.

Ziggurat may be the most rabidly pro-Israeli person on the entire planet*. That doesn't mean they're a Jew, and it shouldn't mean their opinions should be dismissed because they are a Jew (especially since they might not be!).

*Hypothetically speaking.

-Gumboot

 

[Oliver]

Ziggurat may be the most rabidly pro-Israeli person on the entire planet*. That doesn't mean they're a Jew, and it shouldn't mean their opinions should be dismissed because they are a Jew (especially since they might not be!).

*Hypothetically speaking.

-Gumboot

It wouldn't matter to me if he's a Jew or not. I would like to know it to understand his position - because making a secret out of it makes him look non-credible. (Is there an English word for "Unglaubwürdig"?)

Well, I wait for his own reply - because in the end, it's his business.

 

[gumboot]

It wouldn't matter to me if he's a Jew or not.

It does matter to Ion.

-Gumboot

 

[Oliver]

It does matter to Ion.

-Gumboot

I still wait for ION's presentation of evidence in my "Israel-Lobby"-Thread. So far I think he's tweaking Ziggurat's nose here to provoke an answer concerning the origin-issue.

 

[Gurdur]

It wouldn't matter to me if he's a Jew or not. I would like to know it to understand his position - because making a secret out of it makes him look non-credible. (Is there an English word for "Unglaubwürdig"?)

Well, I wait for his own reply - because in the end, it's his business.

Unglaubwürdig = unbelievable, untrustworthy.

And crap. Zig's ethnic origins are nobody's business than his. For ****'s sakes, Oliver, having an ethnic background does not make you automatically prone to a particular political position.

More: Jews in the States actually tend to be very liberal; in fact, from round 1895 to 1940, many Jews were in the forefront of attempted social democracy and trade unionization in the States. In the 1960's and 1970's, many Jews were in the forefront of civil rights fights on behalf on the blacks.

If Zig is untrustworthy, it would have zero but zero to do with his ethnicity.

And BTW, to repeat something I said a while back, either in this thread or another:

Ion makes a habit of attacking people as Jews. He even once bitterly attacked me as a Jew (I'm about as Jewish as Winston Churchill or William The Conqueror was), and attacked me as a Zionist, and also attacked me as a supporter of American imperialism.

Far from it for me to defend Zig; Zig has attacked me as being on crack (interestingly enough, over a factual point where it was extremely easy to prove him wrong), and IIRC and only IIRC he's also stupidly attacked me as a "socialist" (wrongly), gumboot is at the moment trying to attack me as "irrational" (apparently only because I don't agree with his extremist and wholly unrealistic and useless stances), or IOW life around here is all as normal. SOP of the flamers.

However, none of that, none of the actual business at hand, goes any way to making Zig's ethnicity in any way relevant to the discussion whatsoever. And Ion is only utterly ridiculous when he tries those tactics.
Meh³.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't understand Ziggurat and Darth Rotor. If anyone should be ashamed of his origin, it's definitely me and Germany's Nazi-History.

I'm not ashamed of anything. But like Gurdur said, I also don't believe my ancestors determine my opinions. Furthermore, not only don't they disqualify any opinions I hold, they don't grant my opinions any authority either. And that's the way I want it. In a different context, I might indeed have shared my family background, but once Ion started making an a** out of himself with speculations and antisemitic insults (several years ago he made one regarding neocons, code word for Jews for him, having big noses because air is free), I made a decision to not reveal anything about my origins. Why? Because the way Ion has behaved has been reprehensible, it has been reprehensible regardless of any accidental accuracy or inaccuracy in his speculations, and I want people to recognize it as reprehensible on those grounds. I'm happy to say that it appears to me most posters do understand that, including ones with whom I've had heated confrontations and strong disagreements in the past.

 

[Oliver]

I'm not ashamed of anything. But like Gurdur said, I also don't believe my ancestors determine my opinions. Furthermore, not only don't they disqualify any opinions I hold, they don't grant my opinions any authority either. And that's the way I want it. In a different context, I might indeed have shared my family background, but once Ion started making an a** out of himself with speculations and antisemitic insults (several years ago he made one regarding neocons, code word for Jews for him, having big noses because air is free), I made a decision to not reveal anything about my origins. Why? Because the way Ion has behaved has been reprehensible, it has been reprehensible regardless of any accidental accuracy or inaccuracy in his speculations, and I want people to recognize it as reprehensible on those grounds. I'm happy to say that it appears to me most posters do understand that, including ones with whom I've had heated confrontations and strong disagreements in the past.

I didn't know that this is a several years old conflict. So even if it would make sense to say: "I believe this and that because this or that reason" - which is the point ("my ancestors determine my opinions") on which Ion obviously had (You answered it) to speculate and uses this lack of knowledge exactly for the purpose to attack you, I accept your decision and will not ask you any further about it.