A Challenge for Oliver: This is America

[Hokulele]

I generally avoid posting in Politics, however, I have followed several of the conversations, and recently have noticed that a few people, Oliver in particular, seem to have a warped view of American politics and Americans in general. I would like to offer a challenge to Oliver, and anyone else who may be interested, that may help remedy this view. I know the point this post will make has been brought up before, I even brought it up myself in one of the threads in the CT sub-forum, but I believe that some concrete experience may help reinforce it. Please assume that the rest of this post is directed specifically to you, Oliver.

One mistake I have found that you make repeatedly is the assumption that what you are reading and hearing from certain national news pundits and web sites accurately represents my country. Although there will be individuals for whom these reports resonate, America is far more diverse geographically, culturally, and yes, politically than you could ever imagine. Even as Bavarians differ from Berliners, Floridians differ from Montanans, and New Yorkers, differ from, well, New Yorkers. Views popularly expressed in a coffee shop in Seattle will not be as widely held by those drinking beer in Oklahoma City. The political and cultural climate is extremely different between Greater Los Angeles, the Bay Area, Fresno, Sacramento, and Tahoe, all within the state of California.

When it all comes down to election time, all politics are local. Although the pundits at the big outlets drone on and on regarding who is currently in the lead, how each candidate might have done in the last debate, and who may potentially be paired with who as a running mate, local journalists are reporting on the city council, the senate race, and what activities the national parties are sponsoring locally, and yes, there are more than two parties. For many of the presidential candidates, the selection of a state campaign chairperson can have a larger effect on voter opinion than how they performed in the latest debate.

So here is my challenge. For the rest of the month of June, forgo the major websites such as CNN, abandon the blogs, turn off Fox News, and instead rely solely on the smaller, local papers for your news of America. Any given day, choose 3 or more of the following sources, read all of the national and local headlines as they are presented, and at least one article from the local section in its entirety. If you wish to review more than three of these sources, or read more of the articles, I would encourage it, but nothing else until July. Please try to alternate sources to get as wide a variety as possible.

Anchorage Daily News
The Arizona Republic
Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Boston Globe
Honolulu Advertiser
Houston Chronicle
Indianapolis Star
Kansas City Star
Miami Herald
Minneapolis/St. Paul Star Tribune
Sacramento Bee
San Diego Union-Tribune
Seattle Times

One interesting note about this list, and the other locations mentioned in this post, I have personally spent at least a week of my life in each of these places, sometimes even years, and have worked, dined, played, and raised a glass or two with the people who lived and worked there.

Once this month has passed with no other American news source than these, please tell me if your opinion of my country, and my fellow citizens has changed. Thank you.

 

[LostAngeles]

I'm just going to post to keep this bumped because that is an excellent post.

 

[Lensman]

I agree - & I'm not even an American.

 

[gtc]

I agree - & I'm not even an American.

Me too.

He has also suggested that the media in Canada and Australia is substantially different to the media in the US. He might like to compare the American papers to:

• The Ottawa Citizen, and
• The Sydney Morning Herald

 

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

While I agree with the intent of the original post, I must point out that many who are anti-American will remain so regardless of where their media exposure comes from. For many people, at least where I'm from, Anti-Americanism is equivalent to Canadian patriotism. Any foreign policy decision made by the American government is criticised. From what I've seen in the international press, the United States is the bad guy, period.

 

[fuelair]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=NEWS
http://www.stltoday.com/ (St. Louis)
http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage (Nashville)
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage (Louisville, Ky)
http://www.btimes.com/news/default.asp (Baltimore,MD)

Just to supply a few more options and expand the country.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Excellent point and challenge, Hokulele.

 

[bob_kark]

I'll throw in The Times Picayune for a look at a City that I love, in ruins.

 

[rikzilla]

OP Nominated!

What a great example of the application of practical critical thinking! Here's hoping Ollie takes you up on this!

-z

 

[Hokulele]

Thanks everyone for the support. I do realize that changing people's minds is a very difficult proposal, but I would prefer that if someone is going to be anti-American, or even pro-American, they do so with an informed opinion.

 

[Roswell-Perseis]

Hokulele-

I believe we (Americans) are an amalgamation of our local, state, and national politics. I would think this is true of any place (though with different words) and it is difficult to see people not get that idea. It is easy to bash our national system, but people think our national government is much more powerful than it really is in our everyday workings.

I have to admit I understand some of the anti-American sentiment; we are powerful and things are just horribly messy all over the world right now. It is wonderful that you are trying to show people that we are not what they think and that the people of this country are complex in our political thinking and dealings. I think it is in vain, but I admire you for this. I enjoy bashing government and politicians (mostly national, a little state and rarely local- because I feel those local politicos are accountable), but Americans are no one thing and the extrapolation of any one idea to that massive representation "this is what all Americans are like" is stereotype-threat.

I don't think I ever really understood the Anti-American sentiment (the reasonable and unreasonable) until I joined this forum. It has been educational to say the least.

These aren't great news outlets, but I've gotta represent my home state:
http://www.wilx.com
http://lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage
http://www.wotv.com
http://www.woodtv.com

 

[DanishDynamite]

A nice and interesting challenge.

Perhaps, if Oliver takes the challenge, it might affect his views.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world, as much as it may read local US news, must necessarily react to official US foreign policy and official US foreign actions.

 

[Hokulele]

A nice and interesting challenge.

Perhaps, if Oliver takes the challenge, it might affect his views.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world, as much as it may read local US news, must necessarily react to official US foreign policy and official US foreign actions.

Don't worry, I don't have such a huge ego I assume I can fix the world with one post.

 

[Azure]

Great challenge, and nominated again.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Don't worry, I don't have such a huge ego I assume I can fix the world with one post.

All righty then.

 

[The Atheist]

I go along with the premise in the OP, but I think a lot of people's opinions are shaped by what they see coming from the mouths and keyboards of Americans more than what's said in the media.

A case in point. This is culled from two threads at another board. There are lots more in the same vein, but these are good and representative, you may recognise some names:

Ed: I am afraid of my country being attacked by a loonie islamist

They [Iranians] don't care about damage to their own. They have said so repeatedly. They are also a culture of death so that dieing is not something to be avoided at all costs as it is in the west

LukeT: Seems to me these idiots would have learned by now that when anyone says they are going to hurt us the first chance they get, we take that #### seriously and don't blow it off as rhetoric

Do I believe we should take a serious look at pre-emptively striking Iran's nuclear weapon producing facilities? Yes

Nyarlathotep: The Iranian peopl want us just as dead as the Mullahs do

Too bad Iran has no interest in talking unless it is to hear us say, 'we surrender'.

Let me put it this way, they want me dead because I have commited the terrible crime of not being a Muslim. You can't talk to that mentality

Truthfully, I honestly beleive that Manhattan will be nuked in my lifetime.

Amateur Scientist: Indeed. Any pre-emptive strike would have a rather narrow focus and goal -- to disable and dismantle any nuclear weapons or uranium enrichment programs, and probably any delivery devices like missiles....The point isn't to kill or maim ordinary citizens....Would ordinary citizens get caught in the crossfire? Undoubtedly...

I agree that we are engaged in a clash of irreconcilable cultures

...a very large segment of Islamic followers believe at the core that pleasing Allah is paramount in life, and that Allah wants more than anything for his followers to destroy all infidels

The radicals will stop at nothing short of seeing the entire Western civilization wiped off the face of the earth. That is in fact the clash of the civilizations, and you can see that it comes from radical Islamic intolerance for infidels, and the fact that they view everyone but them, especially Westerners, as infidels. It is not because Westerners wish to see Muslims vanish. We did not start this mess; they did by believing that infidels must die. This has been going on to various degrees for 1300 years. Thus, we have a clash which is in fact irreconcilable. One of us eventually must go, or give up our way of life

Wildcat: The USA is very good at killing those who attack us or our allies. My conscience is clear btw

DoctorX: The USA maintained the "moral highground" over Iraq with or without WMDs

Pyrrho: What worries me is not that Iran might build a nuclear warhead or a deliverable nuclear bomb of any other design. What worries me is that they'll be able to supply "conventional" bombers with radioactive material in order to make "dirty bombs"...although the scenario of a gun-type weapon in a shipping container being detonated in New York Harbor--and maybe in several key ports simultaneously--seems a likely possibility

Abdul Ahazred: Really it boils down to this -- Who will annihilate Iran and who else will be annihilated along the way?

hammegk: My trhought is announcing that any nuclear device detonated on US soil (or Israel) will result -- at minimum -- in Mecca, Medina, N.Korea, Tehran, and a couple places in Pakistan becoming radioactive glass.

Several more limited areas of glassiness would be better... maybe. Keep fallout to a minimum with well-planned airbursts.

Unfortunately the Chinese & Ruskis have problems with sourcing oil too (the rest of the world can go spit in the wind, including the Your-O-peein bunch.)

Feel free to expand my list ... a couple spots in the old USSR might come to mind

Vic Daring, [in answer to the above]: This may surprise you, but if we could get a reliable assurance from China that the result wouldn't be global thermonucular holocaust, I'd be alright with that

Verbatim quotes, typos included, all opinions from Americans.

Now, these people are by no means the majority opinion in USA, but they are certainly not in the minority on their own board. Anyone seeing this kind of drivel might just start to tar all Americans with the "insane" brush.

Maybe, rather than worrying about the mass media, you need to be finding out why your fellow countrymen are so badly scared that they act this way and promulgate these kinds of opinions. This is not the kind of work which will find much favour with people living in those countries these people wish to "turn into parabolic mirrors".

 

[Hokulele]

*Sigh*

Now I know why I rarely post in this sub-forum. The Atheist, please refer back to my post where I stated I didn't expect to fix the world in one post.

 

[The Atheist]

*Sigh*

Now I know why I rarely post in this sub-forum. The Atheist, please refer back to my post where I stated I didn't expect to fix the world in one post.

I'm not trying to rain on your idea, which I think is actually quite a good one - I'm sure there is unbiased reporting in USA, just as there's biased reporting. Same as everywhere else!

I'm just pointing out that the problem is not just media involvement; lots of real, live Americans think exactly as Oliver expects them to. How to overcome that isn't quite so easy.

 

[Hokulele]

I'm not trying to rain on your idea, which I think is actually quite a good one - I'm sure there is unbiased reporting in USA, just as there's biased reporting. Same as everywhere else!

I'm just pointing out that the problem is not just media involvement; lots of real, live Americans think exactly as Oliver expects them to. How to overcome that isn't quite so easy.

OK, thanks. I will try to fix that problem in the next thread I start.

 

[RandFan]

I'm just pointing out that the problem is not just media involvement; lots of real, live Americans think exactly as Oliver expects them to. How to overcome that isn't quite so easy.

I'm not sure how you get around a profound lack of critical thinking and ignorance. To judge America based on the examples you provide would be to rely only on anecdotal evidence.

It would be nice if thosee non-Americans who come to this forum and make that mistake would take the time to educate themselves.

Sadly people see what they want to see. I think folks like Ion and Oliver have such profound enmity toward America that there is not likely much that we can do.