350 MPG cars

bignickel said:
Well, you're forgetting that the Insight and Prius do things completely differantly.

The Insight uses it's electrics for acceleration
The Prius uses it's gas engine for acceleration.

Anyhoo, this is from one of the web sites that Buggirl mentioned

http://www.insightcentral.net/KB/faq-efficiency.html#acceleration
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I'm not sure who this is directed at but my comment was in response to ReFLeX's general comments about hybrids. I just provided some Prius specific information.
 
another interesting difference between Prius and Insights is what they run the accessories and air conditioning off of. The Prius runs it off the battery, so there isn't a big mileage hit if you run the AC.

the Insight, perhaps because it was the first mass produced hybrid, and they just are too lazy to change anything, runs the AC off the motor, and can cut a good 5-8 mpg off your mileage.:(
 
bug_girl said:
another interesting difference between Prius and Insights is what they run the accessories and air conditioning off of. The Prius runs it off the battery, so there isn't a big mileage hit if you run the AC.

.:(
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Doesn't this qualify for the JREF Challenge?

Aren't you saying that running the A/C off the battery takes less energy than running a similar system off of the engine? Sounds like a free energy claim to me.

Or did the Toyota engineers botch the job, and put in soo small a battery that some energy is wasted because the battery is too small to absorb all the energy that the system could re-generate?
 
my full battery charge is about 15 bars on the display.
I've never had it go below 14 bars.

I have plenty of "leftover" energy to run the AC, rather than drawing on the gasoline engine.
 
casebro said:
Aren't you saying that running the A/C off the battery takes less energy than running a similar system off of the engine? Sounds like a free energy claim to me.
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The battery is charged when breaking and coasting and not by additional burning of fuel, therefore running the AC on battery will not use additional fuel. If you are stopped for an extended period of time and the AC (or other electrical "stuff") drains the battery enough, the engine will turn back on to charge the battery.
 
oh, yeah. a better answer.
I think I should impose a posting moratorium on me until the second cup of coffee :p
 
Hybrids give you the 'feel good' factor. But diesels are just as economical, cheaper to buy, more reliable, and don't have the luggage space taken up by batteries. They also don't need a hugely expensive battery pack replacement every few years.

No one (AFAIK) makes a hybrid diesel. Diesel engines are pretty efficient anyway when running at low load. Gasoline engines are notoriously uneconomic when operating at low load, so if you must have a hybrid, you'll see bigger gains with a gasoline hybrid than a diesel one.
 
There is no diesel that has the SULEV rating.

(which is the very stupid sounding EPA rating of "super ultra low emissions vehicle)

That's my objection to diesel, aside from the wasting of motion energy. A hybrid diesel would be a great idea, combining two good things in one package.

I'm also not sure where you're getting the "more reliable" info. Cripes, Compared to Ford and GM cars, hybrids are just about maintenance free!
Mine certainly has been very simple to care for.
 
Link to discussion of hybrid versus diesel technology:

http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-versus-diesel.html

Summary: Full hybrids and diesels offer similar fuel economy advantages. The cost disadvantage over standard internal combustions engines for diesels is less than the cost disadvantage for hybrids. Hybrids pollute less and the pollution problems for diesels could be significant in 2007 when the full pollution restricition kick in for diesels, particularly in California and other states with strong car pollution restricittions.

quote from article linked to above on diesels:
...Compared with 1988 diesel technology, modern diesels have 100% more power, 60% less noise, 90% lower emissions, and 30% less fuel consumption. Modern diesels are not noisier than gasoline engines, do not produce a diesel odor, and accelerate as well as comparable gasoline vehicles. This suggests that many of the negative perceptions about diesels held by car buyers could be overcome with greater exposure to modern diesel vehicles.
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quote from article linked to above on diesel pollution:
As an indication of how significant the pollution problem still is for current diesel engines consider that the diesel Jetta is rated 4 on the EPA’s Air Pollution Scale (1 to 10 with 10 lowest pollution) whereas the gasoline Jetta is rated 8. On the same scale, Prius earns a 10 and Escape Hybrid earns an 8. The stricter pollution standards for diesel engines do not fully take effect until 2007, so, if one is very concerned about not contributing to pollution, then one should wait until then to consider diesel.
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Link to another article on diesel versus gasoline:
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm

quote from the article linked to above:
The improved efficiency of diesel engines can also help reduce oil consumption. It should be noted, however, that it takes about 25% more oil to make a gallon of diesel fuel than a gallon of gasoline, so we should really look at how a vehicle does on fuel efficiency in terms of "oil equivalents." Thus, we need to adjust the mileage claims for diesel vehicles downward by about 20% when comparing them to gasoline-powered vehicles.
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davefoc said:
Link to discussion of hybrid versus diesel technology:

http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-versus-diesel.html

Summary: Full hybrids and diesels offer similar fuel economy advantages. The cost disadvantage over standard internal combustions engines for diesels is less than the cost disadvantage for hybrids. Hybrids pollute less and the pollution problems for diesels could be significant in 2007 when the full pollution restricition kick in for diesels, particularly in California and other states with strong car pollution restricittions.

quote from article linked to above on diesels:

quote from article linked to above on diesel pollution:
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There does seem to be a problem with the stats in your posts, however.

Both article quote different numbers; and they don't quite add up.

Plus, they seem to both be based on American diesel fuel. Many European nations use fuels which are considerably lower in sulfur.
In any case, switching to biodiesel pretty much eliminates both the pollution issue, and the absolute fuel economy issue.
 
Does anyone know of any research into running a car like a train?

What I mean is run a turbine engine which drives a generator that powers electric motors for the wheels.

It seems to me that turbines are more efficient than internal combustion engines, when under a constant load, and using a battery bank to act as a buffer between energy demand/supply from the electric wheel motors (including regenerative brakeing) might provide a more economical and environmentally friendly car.

Also, turbines can operate on a variety of fuels...basically anything organic that can be delivered to the combustion chamber as a fine mist.... by changing the fuel jets as required by the specific fuel.

There would be considerations around turbine maintenance, of course.
 
luchog said:

In any case, switching to biodiesel pretty much eliminates both the pollution issue, and the absolute fuel economy issue.
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err....no. Biodiesel isn't that green, when you factor in all the chemicals and energy used to farm the soybeans, harvest them, and then process them.

Biodiesel from old fry vats....maybe.
But that's not the primary source touted for mass production.
 
reply to a couple of recent posts

Due to fuel dilution, diesels use lots more lube oil, usually changed at 2,000 mile intervals

Diesel does not use more oil to make, but it does have 20% more energy in a unit than gas. Diesel is an ecxellent companion product for gasoline refining: A barrel of oil (42 gallons) makes about 35 gals of gas, 3 of diesel, a couple gallons of heavier oils, and a couple gallons of tar for roofs and roads. Yes, due to the addition of hydrogen, they make more than 42 gallons of stuff from a 42 gallon barrel. The more diesel made, the less gas. Diesel is basically a byproduct of gas refining, and as such has been sold cheap. Not no more, here in Southern California it is more than premium, $3.17 last week, vs $2.95 for premium. I wonder where the excess profits are going? Can you say "Oligarchy"?

Another profit question: last year, crude was $40/barrel, or about $1 per galllon of gas. Gas retailed for $1.50. Now a days, crude is $60, or about $1.50/gallon, and the retail is $2.50. Refiners seem to have doubled their mark up, eh?

Turbine engines: Last 10 times as long as Internal Combustion engines, so maintenance costs are lower. But initial cost are about the same rate higher....Planes use them for dependability, as well as fuel efficiency. Would you pay an extra $20,000 for the improved engine? And where you going to put the huge muffler? citizens wouldn't like the noise of an airplane taking off every time you head to work....

I think the reall cure to our situation will be to do away with zoning laws that prohibit mixed use. Instead require that the jobs be within walking distance of housing. We'll end up with "legal campuses", "financial enclaves", "college campuses" (can't improve some things), 'mill neighborhoods" . But Nimby-ism will be politically incorrect, them millworkers vote too.
 
Badger said:
Does anyone know of any research into running a car like a train?

What I mean is run a turbine engine which drives a generator that powers electric motors for the wheels.

It seems to me that turbines are more efficient than internal combustion engines, when under a constant load, and using a battery bank to act as a buffer between energy demand/supply from the electric wheel motors (including regenerative brakeing) might provide a more economical and environmentally friendly car.
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Well, Chrysler spent 25 years and US$120 million developing turbine-powered cars, even releasing a production vehicle. The Chrysler Imperial car club have archived an excellent article on the subject here. I thought the biggest problem with (direct) turbine powered vehicles was the appaling acceleration from rest.
 
bug_girl said:
err....no. Biodiesel isn't that green, when you factor in all the chemicals and energy used to farm the soybeans, harvest them, and then process them.

Biodiesel from old fry vats....maybe.
But that's not the primary source touted for mass production.
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Exactemente, a lot of people have just decided this is a good idea without worrying about the details.

For farmers looking for a market for their products its pretty cool.

For the federal government searching for yet more ways to give away your tax dollars to farmers with land what could be better.

For the progressively inclined it seems like a pretty good idea which is being held back by the evil Repbulicans who are once again screwing over the little guy.

And it is such a nice feel good idea, reduced dependence on foreigh oil, renewable resource, etc.

This is such a great idea that it doesn't seem to matter that it uses more oil than it saves. Oh well.
 
Re casebro's post above.

I don't know of any modern diesels with 2,000-mile lube change intervals. The vehicles I see go at least 10,000 miles and the ones with automatic service interval calculation can sometimes run 25,000 or more when used only for long journeys.
 
Well, another drive on the highway today, getting my batteries close up to the top again.

Then, off to the coffeehaus tonight. I come out from coffee, and whoopie! My mains have no power in them! So it's gas gas gas all the way until the main gets charged up again.

Evidently, I should use as much IMA as possible to keep my mains at HALF, because if they get near full, the charge will disappear. Another 'feature' I guess...
 
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