CBL4 said:
Yep, but if a substantial fraction of people are driving cars that need to be charged, then some of them will have to be charged during the day, and there won't be a great electricity surplus during the night.
Will many people put their chargers on some kind of system where the grid can turn them off to shed load? (As some people do now with A/C) Sure, if it will save them some money. Almost certainly, if it's a hybrid where not having a full charge doesn't mean you can't take the trip. Will the price of electricity go up as demand goes up, even if it's off-peak? You bet.
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
I've purchased two hybrids in the past year.
Tax credits and deductions for both cars - $7,000.
Not having to ever have them emissions tested - $500
Averaging 40-45 and 60-65 MPG - $1,000 / year
Driving two cars with nearly zero emissions and using less then 1/2 the gas...priceless
Wildcat:
I've driven the cars in and through the mountains and on 75 MPH highways. They climb, merge and pass just fine. I won't kid you, they are economy, not sports cars. But if someone is in the market for a small car, they should consider one.
I look for reasons to do something positive, not reasons not too.
Tax credits and deductions for both cars - $7,000.
Not having to ever have them emissions tested - $500
Averaging 40-45 and 60-65 MPG - $1,000 / year
Driving two cars with nearly zero emissions and using less then 1/2 the gas...priceless
Wildcat:
I've driven the cars in and through the mountains and on 75 MPH highways. They climb, merge and pass just fine. I won't kid you, they are economy, not sports cars. But if someone is in the market for a small car, they should consider one.
I look for reasons to do something positive, not reasons not too.
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
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DavidJames said:
And how much extra did you pay for each over the standard model? $5,000 each, = $10,000, you are about even....
Two Geo Metros would get the same milage, you're even...
Additional 'pollution units' for the batteries.... you're even...
Giving yourself a pat on the head for no reason....priceless...
They may use an unusual tire, how does the cost per mile compare to a standard tire?
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
It's more complex then simply dividing by 2. If you really care, do some research on SULEV or SULEV-2. I will admit to a bit of hyperbole though by saying nearly zero. Comparatively speaking, I can't do much better.Ladewig said:
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
So where can I buy a new Geo Metro and what are it's emissions ratings? And how much are the "pollution units"?casebro said:
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
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This from a 2002 article in a car magazine:
"Toyota's European Yaris compact car gets better fuel economy from its conventional 1.4L turbodiesel powertrain than does the highly touted (and more expensive) Prius hybrid-electric vehicle sold in the U.S. Yet the two are built on the same platform and are essentially the same vehicle.
The diesel Yaris is rated at 56 mpg (4.2 L/100 km) in the combined Euro test cycle, while the Prius HEV is rated at 52 mpg (4.5 L/100 km) city and 45 mpg (5.2 L/100 km) highway."
It sounds like the Euro EPA milage tests are closer to reality.
"Toyota's European Yaris compact car gets better fuel economy from its conventional 1.4L turbodiesel powertrain than does the highly touted (and more expensive) Prius hybrid-electric vehicle sold in the U.S. Yet the two are built on the same platform and are essentially the same vehicle.
The diesel Yaris is rated at 56 mpg (4.2 L/100 km) in the combined Euro test cycle, while the Prius HEV is rated at 52 mpg (4.5 L/100 km) city and 45 mpg (5.2 L/100 km) highway."
It sounds like the Euro EPA milage tests are closer to reality.
davefoc
Philosopher
comparison of Honda civic hybrid sedan versus standard Honda Civic (5 speed transmission)
standard mpg - 32/38
hybrid mpg - 46 / 51
standard weight - 2612
hybrid weight - 2675
standard hp - 115@6100
hybrid hp - 85 @ 5700 / 93 @ 5700
standard passenger volume - 91.4 cubic feet
hybrid passenger volume - 91.4 cubic feet
Based on the above it looks like a reasonable estimate of the fuel economy improvement for a hybrid is in the range of 40%. Although it looks like the hybrid has a little less power and weighs a little bit more so its acceleration will probably be a little less. So maybe 30% plus is a good number on a like for like basis.
As to the diesel car discussed above I believe it is well known that diesel cars get better mileage than gas powered cars. In a similar thread previously somebody said that there were disadvantages to the diesel engine that countered some of the fuel economy advantages. I think polution was one of the things mentioned but it seems like the poster had another point that I've forgotten.
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid&Category=2
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Sedan&Category=2
standard mpg - 32/38
hybrid mpg - 46 / 51
standard weight - 2612
hybrid weight - 2675
standard hp - 115@6100
hybrid hp - 85 @ 5700 / 93 @ 5700
standard passenger volume - 91.4 cubic feet
hybrid passenger volume - 91.4 cubic feet
Based on the above it looks like a reasonable estimate of the fuel economy improvement for a hybrid is in the range of 40%. Although it looks like the hybrid has a little less power and weighs a little bit more so its acceleration will probably be a little less. So maybe 30% plus is a good number on a like for like basis.
As to the diesel car discussed above I believe it is well known that diesel cars get better mileage than gas powered cars. In a similar thread previously somebody said that there were disadvantages to the diesel engine that countered some of the fuel economy advantages. I think polution was one of the things mentioned but it seems like the poster had another point that I've forgotten.
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid&Category=2
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Sedan&Category=2
I drive a 2001 Honda insight CVT. I get 63mpg.
the 2005 5 speed insight regularly gets 75mpg.
In the Tour Del Sol, a modified honda insight averaged over 100 mpg on a hilly, long distance course.
The modification was a way to manually control the "lean burn" feature of the engine. (technical specs here)
I think you guys are being too cynical. Some of the hybrids, at least, are quite efficient.
BTW, the CVT is rated SULEV by the EPA
(super ultra low emissions vehicle.)
and it doesn't plug in. I swear, I can't believe how many people ask me where the plug is
the 2005 5 speed insight regularly gets 75mpg.
In the Tour Del Sol, a modified honda insight averaged over 100 mpg on a hilly, long distance course.
The modification was a way to manually control the "lean burn" feature of the engine. (technical specs here)
I think you guys are being too cynical. Some of the hybrids, at least, are quite efficient.
BTW, the CVT is rated SULEV by the EPA
(super ultra low emissions vehicle.)
and it doesn't plug in. I swear, I can't believe how many people ask me where the plug is
It's a great car if your freeway driving is limited. It actually does OK on the freeway but accelleration is obviously not the best. She drove it for years in the DC area without any problems. We also drove it across country completely filled and it did fine. It was slow over the mountain passes out west but that was with a lot more weight than normal.
If you want a economical (buying and maintaining), reliable second car, it is ideal. Too bad they don't make them anymore.
BTW, if I were looking for a sedan, I would certainly consider the Prius. Unfortunately, my next car will probably be a minivan. Is there a hybrid mini-van yet?
CBL
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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Keneke said:
I don't see why you think they aren't comparable. One of the advantages of hybrids is precisely that you can use a smaller engine. Normal cars only output something close to peak power for short durations (accelerating up to highway speeds, for example), so if you can augment the gasoline engine power with battery power for those short periods, the necessary gasoline engine power required to get the same sort of performance is not going to be as large. Hence the smaller engine: it's an integral part of the benefit of hybrids. So I don't see why you shouldn't compare the two, it seems perfectly logical to me.
I am interested but I really would like room for 8 and Highlander takes 7. (My family of 4 would like to be able to go on day trips with another family of 4.) Right now the Honda Odyssey is top of my list but I have not done much research (perhaps no research is more accurate.)
In any case, I cannot buy one right now. Perhaps later in the year.
CBL
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
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Err, I was joking! You inadvertantly typed mph (miles per hour) instead of mpg.CBL4 said:
I'd love to have a hybrid, but I'm in the construction business and need to haul tools and the occasional odd pieces of lumber and other material when the truck is unavailable. So I'm stuck w/ a 14 mpg SUV.
davefoc
Philosopher
Wildcat wrote:
I'm in a somewhat similar situation, but the fold down back seat in my prelude and my accord allows me to carry quite a range of stuff. When I need to carry larger stuff I rent a truck at a home center.
One disadvantage of the honda civic hybrid compared to the standard honda civic is that the back seat doesn't fold down in the hybrid. This would probably make it so that the hybrid wouldn't fit my needs.
I'm in a somewhat similar situation, but the fold down back seat in my prelude and my accord allows me to carry quite a range of stuff. When I need to carry larger stuff I rent a truck at a home center.
One disadvantage of the honda civic hybrid compared to the standard honda civic is that the back seat doesn't fold down in the hybrid. This would probably make it so that the hybrid wouldn't fit my needs.
CBL4 said:
The Odyssey was first on my list, too. We went and looked/ test drove it.
Wound up buying the 8 passenger Toyota Sienna.
No major reasons. Honda carries the spare tire inside, Toyota outside. I've had the wonderful experience of a flat tire, in the rain, on vacation. Had to set a lot of junk outside in the rain to get the tire out.
Toyota has three or so inches more ground clearance. They're both nice vans.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
CBL4 said:
People should just not expect a car to take off fast. It really gains nothing in the scheme of things, but wastes a hell of a lot of energy. The Honda gets you to work just as quick as a big V8.
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
I was under the impression that there was little difference between contemporary automatic transmissions and manuals in regards to efficiency.
Havn't really looked at any figures lately though.
Havn't really looked at any figures lately though.
davefoc
Philosopher
Bikewer said:
From the Honda web site of Civic sedan mileage estimates:
Honda Civic DX
five speed manual: 32/38
four speed automatic 29/38
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Sedan&Category=3