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'20 cases suggestive of reincarnation'

I have only read one of the books that talks about some of these cases. I believe it was called "Old Souls - The evidence for reincarnation"...

...I assume the people who have nothing more to add than that it is only lies and delusion haven't even read any of the cases in depth or much on this topic at all. I'm not going to give the evidence or explain the case studies. If you are unfamiliar with them you probably shouldn't even be posting in this discussion.

That's a pretty incredible position to take. You've only read one book on the subject (which you also later admit you can't remember well enough to discuss in detail). Then you state that the evidence is overwhelming - but you're not willing to detail it but assume anyone who disagrees with you therefore can't be an expert and is not allowed to post!

So, roughly translated: 'I'm an expert and it's all true but I'm not going to share or justify my expertise...and actually I can't really remember the cases well enough to discuss them...but they were really convincing...and anyone who disagrees can't have read them (even if they have - indeed even if they have read more about it than me and can provide evidence, cite cases etc) and as such they shouldn't post.'

Is that your position? Do you see the inherent weaknesses in your argument?
 
So why do parents who do not believe in reincarnation, can be persecutes for even being affiliated with this belief, and have no financial, or personal benefit from programming their children, do so?

What about spiritual benefit? I would think that the thought that they might have proof of life after death in their own children would be a very compelling reason (not to mention very reassuring).

When I was about three years old, I "spontaneously" (according to my parents) told them a story that I had lived a previous life in a cabin which I identified as being in the forest on a nearby mountain. I provided an incredibly detailed and woe-filled story of being abused by my evil mother, and slowly dying from cancer or some wasting disease, though I met my end prematurely when a tree collapsed on the cabin, crushing me. I told them I then became a "shadow on the wall" and wandered around looking for new parents. I picked them because they "seemed nice" and "I went into mommy's tummy"!

Both of my parents were scientists, but in those days both also had an interest in "unexplained phenomena." My story was still detailed and striking enough to them that they called it quite "eerie" when recalling it some years later. They found it very difficult to believe that a child as young as myself would be able to create such an elaborate fantasy which involved many things about which I should have had little knowledge (child abuse, cancer) at that age.

I remember my mother had been reading some books on reincarnation around then. I would say it is quite likely that my story may have struck a chord, and more than likely I was encouraged (subconsciously or intentionally) to continue the tale based on this. The susceptibility of children to suggestion is well known (see any of the daycare ritual abuse hysteria trials of the 80's), and many elements which creep into these fantasies -- particularly the more ridiculous ones -- are ignored or re-interpreted by adults who may want to see the story as more than it is.

In my case, my story also included the fact that I was fed nothing but styrofoam for years -- that's what caused my illness! (I vividly remember the old McDonald's Big Mac containers...) I believe that is what probably convinced my parents that perhaps my story couldn't be taken at face value... ;)
 
Choosing a case where the person got none of their information correct is obviously a weak case. How about you choose one where they got pretty much everything right? Perhaps if I have time on Thursday or Friday I will see if I can borrow the book again or search online for one of the stronger cases. That way I can give a full accurate case detail.

No. It's your argument that there are strong cases, so you provide an example.

Please read the posts next time. I do not appreciate having to post things two or more times.

Oh, the irony.
 
Wow. The straw men are out in full force today.

That's a pretty incredible position to take. You've only read one book on the subject (which you also later admit you can't remember well enough to discuss in detail). Then you state that the evidence is overwhelming - but you're not willing to detail it but assume anyone who disagrees with you therefore can't be an expert and is not allowed to post!

So, roughly translated: 'I'm an expert and it's all true but I'm not going to share or justify my expertise...and actually I can't really remember the cases well enough to discuss them...but they were really convincing...and anyone who disagrees can't have read them (even if they have - indeed even if they have read more about it than me and can provide evidence, cite cases etc) and as such they shouldn't post.'

Is that your position? Do you see the inherent weaknesses in your argument?

Yes I did only read one book. I have, however, read other articles online as well as the criticisms of the book and various explanations for the cases. If we are going to debate a case, then obviously I shouldn't simply go off my memory of the details from the book because memory is not a video recorded tape. It does not offer 100% accurate playback. As such if I were to simply try to provide the case details as best recalled by my memory there could be some inaccuracies or mixing up of case details. This is why I stated I would prefer to wait until I have more time to provide all of the correct information for a case which I feel is strong.

It appeared many people who were posting on this didn't even know anything about the topic of this thread and simply chose to post liar or delusion without giving any explanation at all. If you don't know the subject material at all you shouldn't post here. While there are numerous people on these forums who are very intelligent, there are also many who seems to simply enjoy arguing or get angry very easily. As a result many threads turn into a war of personal attacks and 'who can make the most witty comeback without providing actual information'. I have no interest in this as it accomplishes nothing and only entrenches both sides in their previous beliefs regardless of new evidence or information.

So Ethan I would appreciate it if you stopped using straw men concerning my posts. I already stated I was more than willing to provide a case a little later in the week when I had more time.

Winterfrost - That is an interesting story. For reincarnation cases it is not whether the child has a memory that is important. It's whether those memories are accurate. So in your case you may have simply imagined it.

No. It's your argument that there are strong cases, so you provide an example.

I asked you to read posts more carefully. It appeared it was ignored. But I am patient, so I ask you again to please read more carefully.

Perhaps if I have time on Thursday or Friday I will see if I can borrow the book again or search online for one of the stronger cases. That way I can give a full accurate case detail.

As you can see I stated I would most likely provide this case. And I simply stated that using a case where all the memories are wrong is of no value in disproving reincarnation. There is nothing there to disprove because that isn't a valid case for reincarnation.

Hostility and straw men are not conductive to a free exchange of ideas. Please be calm and wait until I have more time available and can provide a case detail that I think is strong. Then we can discuss the details in a civilized and friendly manner.

More than likely I will post it as a new thread and I will post a link to that thread in here as well.
 
Winterfrost - That is an interesting story. For reincarnation cases it is not whether the child has a memory that is important. It's whether those memories are accurate. So in your case you may have simply imagined it.

I completely understand this. I guess the anecdote was more to say that even rational people, as I consider my parents to be, can be caught up in the "apparently" strange things and have that truly warp their perceptions of an event, and therefore the conclusions.

How are the memories determined to be "accurate?" If my story finished with, "And we went into the woods and found the remains of an old cabin," would you consider that to be validation that my "memories" must have been real? Is it possible that the children were being "led" in some way? We've all read many interesting anecdotes of the supernatural, but most seem to collapse independent corroboration or examination.

Hopefully you can borrow the book again and can write up some of the cases you found most compelling for further discussion on the forum!
 
Please read the posts next time. I do not appreciate having to post things two or more times. Choosing a case where the person got none of their information correct is obviously a weak case. How about you choose one where they got pretty much everything right?
You are the one claiming there even is a case "where they got pretty much everything right", so it's up to you to back up your claim and tell us about this supposed case, and NOT up to everyone else to go looking for it. Don't come bleating to the rest of us just because you made a claim you can't justify.
 
Please read the posts next time. I do not appreciate having to post things two or more times. Choosing a case where the person got none of their information correct is obviously a weak case. How about you choose one where they got pretty much everything right? Perhaps if I have time on Thursday or Friday I will see if I can borrow the book again or search online for one of the stronger cases. That way I can give a full accurate case detail.

I hope that you have some time Friday to do some research on a compelling case or two. I've read through what I can find and haven't found anything that I could call "compelling".

(SNIP)
If we are going to debate a case, then obviously I shouldn't simply go off my memory of the details from the book because memory is not a video recorded tape. It does not offer 100% accurate playback. As such if I were to simply try to provide the case details as best recalled by my memory there could be some inaccuracies or mixing up of case details. This is why I stated I would prefer to wait until I have more time to provide all of the correct information for a case which I feel is strong.

Fair enough, I was thinking that if you felt this strongly that reincarnation was a real phenomenon, and had read enough about it to come to that conclusion, you could remember more specifics. But perhaps tomorrow.

It appeared many people who were posting on this didn't even know anything about the topic of this thread and simply chose to post liar or delusion without giving any explanation at all. If you don't know the subject material at all you shouldn't post here. While there are numerous people on these forums who are very intelligent, there are also many who seems to simply enjoy arguing or get angry very easily. As a result many threads turn into a war of personal attacks and 'who can make the most witty comeback without providing actual information'. I have no interest in this as it accomplishes nothing and only entrenches both sides in their previous beliefs regardless of new evidence or information.

(Bolding mine.) I think Cuddles explained where we are coming from here and that we are familiar with the subject material. I, for one, would like to know what you would consider a compelling case. Maybe I missed one.

(SNIP)

More than likely I will post it as a new thread and I will post a link to that thread in here as well.

Sounds good.

there are also many who seems to simply enjoy arguing or get angry very easily. As a result many threads turn into a war of personal attacks and 'who can make the most witty comeback without providing actual information'. I have no interest in this as it accomplishes nothing and only entrenches both sides in their previous beliefs regardless of new evidence or information.

Yeah, I hate when people do that.

Perhaps you can read the books that this topic are about? If you haven't read about any of the stronger cases why are you even joining this discussion?
 
The book I wanted to look through was already checked out by someone else so I will be unable to provide the cases from it.

I agreed that I misunderstood and thanked cuddles for his explanation that it wasn't that they were uninformed but that they didn't believe the cases to be strong. What I said may have been a little harsh. It seemed from some of the posts that people were posting without any knowledge of the cases at all.
 
I am the reincarnation of Ian Stevenson. I have all his personal memories and can prove it: I remember making up that entire book, knowing that reincarnation is bunk!


...wait.
 
I received my copy of Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation today. I opened the book to a random case and read it.

It's the Brazilian case of Marta Lorenz. I noted the following:
  • Stevenson investigated this case 40 years after it happened.
  • The mother of Marta was a friend of Maria, the deceased woman who was supposedly reincarnated as Marta.
  • Marta's father kept a detailed diary of the case, but it was lost.

Next!

~~ Paul
 
To suggest that we are used spirits in new bodies is an insult to our amazing uniqueness.

Im 34, and suffer from crohns, arthritis, and all sorts of other related stuff.

Sometimes I feel like a new spirit in a used body........ and that 85 year old man can have his frickin body back.....
 
I received my copy of Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation today. I opened the book to a random case and read it.

It's the Brazilian case of Marta Lorenz. I noted the following:
  • Stevenson investigated this case 40 years after it happened.
  • The mother of Marta was a friend of Maria, the deceased woman who was supposedly reincarnated as Marta.
  • Marta's father kept a detailed diary of the case, but it was lost.

Next!

~~ Paul

But his best case is....?
 
When my brother was very young, he used to make comments to my father beginning with, "When I was the daddy and you were the son..." Does that mean that he was the reincarnation of my grandfather?
 
During 20 some years in the New Age and even having conducted many past life regressions, I have, disappointingly, never once come across a case where evidence was given that was truly verifiable, or something that couldn't be known through normal means, although many people claimed their experiences "seemed so real." My own son talked of when he was a "doctor" in Mexico "when he was big," at age 2. He claimed my other son lived in China and was a "girl." Odd and seemingly out of the blue at the time, but not verifiable.

There is a big difference between the Western take on reincarnation and the Eastern, which involves transmigration of the soul into the form of animals, etc. In the West, the belief is that spirits have more than one chance at life on earth (as a human), the idea being that we are suppsed to be evolving into better more positive. loving humans who will no longer have to reincarnate once that goal is reached, and that in the meantime souls reside on the "other side," or in a spirit realm, so all souls are not on earth at any given time.

There doesn't seem to be much by way of solid, verifiable evidence for the existence of past lives, but the one exception, I thought, was Dr. Stevenson's book, which I read many years ago. At first glance it does seem impressive - one thing I found intriguing was the issue of birth marks that closely correspond with the person's manner of death. But a few months back I read Mary Roach's book "Spook," not exactly a scholarly tome but well written and thoughtful - she did a nice job with it, and in it she tells of going to India to work with a Dr. Rawat who worked with Stevenson in the 70s. She followed along on a typical investigation of a claim made by a certain family, and what she discovered was interesting. First, that most of the stories, by the time they reach the researchers, have been told numerous times to family and friends, possibly encouraging the children's stories to become more and more elaborate, as well as making it almost impossible to know what the original claims might have been. Second, there is a great willingness among these people to believe these stories and in general it is greeted enthusiastically and expectantly, giving the families an "excuse" to come together and party and share resources, etc. She said day to day life in these typically impoverished areas tends to be one of monotony, and her impression what that the child's supposed recognition of lost relatives had been exaggerated by the enthusiastic families who for a time have a claim to "neighborhood fame," something welcomed by whole neighborhoods. So there IS plenty of reason for the families to elaborate the claims, and the for the children to pretend or even play along. This is not to say that is always the case, but it does cast the phenomena in a slightly different light for me. :) Just a few thoughts.

Having posted here for awhile I'm sure my ability to think critically and skeptically is still in the earlier stages, although I've made great strides and appreciate the members of this forum for bearing with me.

I have not read the books by Richard R - I'm curious if his findings were similar.
 
This is a fascinating topic. My own son when he was approx 3 would say he was a grandfather of 3 and say things like " My wife made the best damn meatballs" and "I used to have a dog named Toby when I was big"

I never took it serious but would simply chalk it up to imagination.

I think children are like sponges and are storing everything before the brain can even begin to process & comprehend it. Where he ever got the meatball thing from, I have no idea, as no one ever complimented MY meatballs!
 
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Claus said:
But his best case is....?
The case of Imad Elewar is supposed to be one of the best. It has been analyzed by Leonard Angel.

When my brother was very young, he used to make comments to my father beginning with, "When I was the daddy and you were the son..." Does that mean that he was the reincarnation of my grandfather?
Yes, yes it does.

I think children are like sponges and are storing everything before the brain can even begin to process & comprehend it. Where he ever got the meatball thing from, I have no idea, as no one ever complimented MY meatballs!
Perhaps your or your partner's mother made some really delicious meatballs?

I have to say, slogging through this book is like reading paste.

~~ Paul
 
I received my copy of Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation today. I opened the book to a random case and read it.

It's the Brazilian case of Marta Lorenz. I noted the following:
  • Stevenson investigated this case 40 years after it happened.
  • The mother of Marta was a friend of Maria, the deceased woman who was supposedly reincarnated as Marta.
  • Marta's father kept a detailed diary of the case, but it was lost.
That is fairly representative of Stevenson's style.
 
Good evening,

I'm a new fish here and a former firm believer in reincarnation. Obviously former, as I wouldn't be here if still were firm. I'd be in Sedona, AZ or somewhere...

Anyway, I have a personal experience that I thought might be benificial to this discussion. One thing that has irked me for a long time is this very idea that children can't lie nor have cryptoamnesia. And I have a personal witness to back myself up.

The very first dream I can recall (and I can vaguely recall being put into a carseat [I'll have to check with my mom that we actually had a carseat at the time.]) is the crucifixion of Christ. There he stood on a mountain peak dressed in white, long nut-brown hair about his shoulders, with his hands to his sides, palms up. He was ressurected as I could see the nails in those palms. The rock behind him turned the platform he was standing on (Anyone know what this kind of wall is called?) to reveal a faceless Roman soldier behind it. He looked like a typical Imperial Roman soldier.

Now, taking the details and symbolism of this dream and my age into account, doesn't it sound that I possibly could've witnessed the Crucifixion firsthand? It does, doesn't it. Yet, I never, to the best of my recollection, claimed any past life of such kind. Nope. I was a born n' raised Mormon. The nut-brown hair and white robes of Christ are direct from various paintings of Jesus including Del Parson's well used one here in Utah. The Roman soldier didn't look like anything different than those soldiers commonly depicted in various media.

Cryptoamnesia in the form of a dream. The first dream that I can remember, and I can remember pretty far.

What it boils down to for me is this: I have never encountered a universal theory of reincarnation. Even the idea of the intact human personality traversing the astral planes to a new body deosn't seem to be entirely agreed upon. Why? No body of imperical evidence. If our subconcious minds (the fulcrum of past life evidence) were truly in tune with whatever mechanisms of reincarnation, wouldn't we think that we'd be agreeing upon, more or less, the same thing? I include the most skeptical in that "we". Even taking the story of the blind men and the elephant, all the blind men have to do is to switch places in order to see they are sensing the same animal. With what I've seen from years of dealing with various reincarnationists, they are often many parsecs apart from each other in theory.

I've spent years amongst reincarnation belief and still feel lost in space looking for sure footing and a point of physical reference.

Glad to be here, and I look forward to posting more in the upcoming future!

Andy
 

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