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Empirical Proofs of reincarnation.

Note also - aleCcowaN, you seem to have got this wrong - Natasha's answers were in English, apart from one Russian word Buddha claims to have recognised.

So it may have been this way

- <<<Oh! little father, you do not know that there are still versts and versts between you and Irkutsk?>>>
- My mom gived me a doll
- Did you ask her what she got for her birthday?


I want the record!
 
That does not meet any reasonable burden of evidence

"It worked for me is low standard"

Especially when the corollary to the claimed validation is, "...but it may not work for you." That fails the reproducibility test, the same thing that dooms all sorts of mumbo jumbo like tarot readings. (Tarot readers are not supposed to consult the cards more than once for the same question.) If the method only works for some researchers and not others, or one time but not another, then it is not an empirically valid method.

"Some people don't have past lives." Very well and good as part of the hypothesis, but then there's no observation that distinguishes the case of the method not working from the case of the method working but having no past life from which to draw results. The method is not empirically valid without the ability to make such an observation.

"If you're open-minded enough, you can try the method for yourself." This entirely misses the point and invites the critic to reason in circles. I'm open to the possibility that there exists a method by which legitimate memory regression can occur. However, I'm prima facie skeptical because, as Dave Rogers notes, false memories are a well-studied phenomenon. Any proposed method has to deal with that. And any method claimed to have empirical validity must deal with the possibility of false memories empirically. And the meditation methods as expressed in Edward Conze's works are exactly the sorts of things that would give rise to false memories, and no control applies to validate them. (No, Buddha, I'm not going to allow my review of your methods to devolve into quibbling over irrelevant excerpts from some other author. This is about your "empirical" proof for reincarnation.)

That said, I'm open-minded and willing to entertain evidence that the Conze method works. Conze provides none. And the experiment Buddha proposes has no control. I perform the procedure and obtain something that seems like a memory. By what observation am I expected to verify that what I've thought of is an actual memory from my life? That it simply exists is not the proof. Loftus et al. showed the ease with which such false memories can take root. The empiricism relied on experiences which the researchers knew for a fact the subject had not undergone, but which were "recalled" later as if they were memories. Open-mindedness still requires me to have an observation by which a real memory that I conjure up Conzesequely can be distinguished from the false memories real science tells us will easily occur.

This method has no way to detect either false negative observations or false positive observations. It's empirical doo-doo.

But wait, there's more. The method purports to recover memories from past lives. Since the validity of the method in that respect relies on the premise that past lives exist, which is what Buddha is trying to prove, it's yet another example of his notoriously circular reasoning. Let's grant for this paragraph the condition that if past lives exist, then (without loss of rigor) a method could be said to produce evidence of it. But we're still stuck with mental images and snippets of what seem like recollection that now allege to come from possibly the distant past, placing them almost entirely beyond the range of one's own ability to verify. No observation distinguishes present-life memories from past-life memories; it's all the subjective impression of the subject. Whatever the subject "remembers" is labeled a past-life memory, quod erat demonstrandum. Yet another circle in the argument.

When someone claims to be making an empirical argument, I assume he knows what empiricism means. This is simply and clearly not the case with Buddha. He demonstrates no working knowledge of empiricism as a theoretical notion or empirical methods as a practical approach to developing real-world knowledge. For someone supposedly well versed in empiricism to ask what "empirical controls" are is like someone claiming to be an expert in applied mathematics and not knowing what finite element methods are, or someone claiming to be an expert in control theory not to know what a differential controller is. It's that level of fundamental deficiency.

At this point it's clear what a waste of time Buddha's "proofs" are.
 
- <<<Oh! little father, you do not know that there are still versts and versts between you and Irkutsk?>>>
- My mom gived me a doll
- Did you ask her what she got for her birthday?

Yup. Without a recording that can be evaluated by a third party it's useless.
 
I want the record!

I'm confident none exists because I doubt the interview was conducted with this level of rigor in mind. That's why, obviously, it cannot be considered empirical evidence because it fails to be a reliable enough and controlled enough observation. But if we're going to continue to accept and discuss it as a pseudo-empirical experiment, then we have to admit a lower standard of reporting. We've already decided it's not empirically valid, so there's no use poking and prodding for further information that meets that standard. We've consigned ourselves to treating the story as being whatever Buddha represents it to be, potential embellishments and all. So when attempting to resolve the inconsistencies it contains, it's no great loss to continue to accept his recollection and report as the only data we'll ever have.
 
But we're still stuck with mental images and snippets of what seem like recollection that now allege to come from possibly the distant past, placing them almost entirely beyond the range of one's own ability to verify.

Speaking of memory and things being beyond one's range, do you think Buddha's methods would work on present-life memories? Because I'll tell you what, I have a pretty hard time remembering things from last week let alone last century.

Here's my question for the past life memory crowd - we know that memories are imperfect. We know that they degrade or are corrupted very easily, that they can be manipulated. We know that as we age our already flawed memories deteriorate even further. We know that damage to our physical brains can cause loss of memory that certainly appears to be permanent. Why is this the case if I can access memories from a thousand years ago (or even fifty)? If the memories aren't stored in my physical brain, and I can recall them in a similar way to my memories of last month, why doesn't it always work this way - at the very least for this current life's memory?
 
Speaking of memory and things being beyond one's range, do you think Buddha's methods would work on present-life memories?

Possibly. The best methods for assisting memory are various mnemonic procedures that apply cognition to the problem. You associate the desired fact with some cue, and the association is what creates the strong memory. The human brain is poor at naked recall, but very good at creating connections, associations, sequences, etc. Any act that makes you think about something is likely to improve your memory of it. For example, I keep a diary at work of my day's activities. I almost never refer back to it, but the act of writing it down helps me remember from day to day what needs my attention. The act of writing it down in a coherent sentence is enough cognition to make it work. With practice, techniques of this class can be used to achieve unbelievable levels of recall. Penn & Teller once performed a trick where a volunteer selects a playing card from a shuffled, ungimmicked deck and then is directed to a location on the set where a large version of the same card was located. The secret behind the trick was straightforward: they had hidden all 52 cards at different places around the set and had memorized all their locations.

The problem with these methods is that they require preparation. Methods that work after the fact tend to rely on your ability to reconstruct any cognition that may have occurred. For example, I just came back from a brief meeting of my department heads. Not all of them were there, but it wasn't a critical meeting and I didn't take roll. But now if I have to recall who was there and who wasn't, I would systematically in my mind go around the room and remember faces in sequence. It's the sequence of the recall that works: start with Dan to my right, then Matt to his right, Paul, etc. That attempt at cognition -- "Who was on whose right?" -- helps recover the memory.

That said, the conscious and semi-conscious mind is home to a number of nuanced states that affect cognition. I encourage knowledge workers to get up and walk around the building when they're stuck on a problem. Go outside. Go down to Maverik and get a soda. Detach from the "grind" of the problem. This is especially important when there's a time crunch. The shift of focus creates a shift in cognition, and there is no reason why such a shift cannot reveal memories that were previously not available. Similarly there is a related creative frame of mind. Did you ever pull up to work in your car and realize you had no memory of the drive there? Your mind was off doing other things. This is the frame of mind that creatives strive to get in and stay in. The point of all this being that any exercise -- including Conzean meditation -- that changes your frame of mind can have the potential to change what you recall.

Unfortunately because this process works equally well for knowledge workers as for creative workers, there is no guarantee that meditation or hypnosis works to improve the accuracy of memory. A meditative state may help you remember different things than you do in focused consciousness, but it also helps you fabricate different things too. When I direct theatre, I take my casts through guided meditations that invite them to take a mental journey. Where they "go" in this semi-conscious state is not so important as what they glean about their mental processes from having gone. Their journeys are probably a hash of memories and fabrications, and that's what I want out of that exercise.

But no, Buddhist meditation is not a magic bullet that lets you remember more things more reliably as a matter of course.

If the memories aren't stored in my physical brain, and I can recall them in a similar way to my memories of last month, why doesn't it always work this way - at the very least for this current life's memory?

Well, see, there's this radio...
 
But if we're going to continue to accept and discuss it as a pseudo-empirical experiment, then we have to admit a lower standard of reporting. We've already decided it's not empirically valid, so there's no use poking and prodding for further information that meets that standard.

Most "evidence" presented by "Buddha" on this topic reminded me of forum user Kathie Bondar's, but in a mild version.

It's amazing the way the anecdotal evidence fails to match the world as it works. People remembering past lives in a Roman legion, in the court of the Pharaoh, with the hordes of Genghis Khan, or just speaking Sanskrit -which makes you either very old or one of the fewer is the last three millennia-.

Their recollections not frequently cross the barrier of race or climatic zone. When their deaths are evoked we have arrows in the neck or sudden collapses, when a seventh of the population died from tuberculosis -not an easy death- until a 100 years ago or so. They almost all remember to be young adults or mature people, when we know half the humans died before five years of age until a 100 years ago or so.

And this goes on and on.
 
Hello all.

I have a question for everyone concerned ...

Does anyone else recall that woman who in the mid to late 1970's claimed to channel some sort ancient hunter/warrior person?

Eventually, she was exposed as a fraud.

Anyway, reincarnation rather reminds me of this case because if someone says that certain words, phrases, etc. are the result of someone who died long dead in a far away land, then it can be quite difficult to actually disprove such a claim.
 
Hello all.

I have a question for everyone concerned ...

Does anyone else recall that woman who in the mid to late 1970's claimed to channel some sort ancient hunter/warrior person?

Eventually, she was exposed as a fraud.

Anyway, reincarnation rather reminds me of this case because if someone says that certain words, phrases, etc. are the result of someone who died long dead in a far away land, then it can be quite difficult to actually disprove such a claim.


Judy Zebra Knight, the cheater who claimed to channel Ramtha, a knight from 35,000 years ago, while spoke with an Indian-like accent? She's still out there making lots of money.
 
Eventually, she was exposed as a fraud.

She's still out there making lots of money.

And yet we still have the defense, "Sure, I may be lying, but what would be my purpose?" Or its variant, "She has no reason to lie, so I believe her." They shift the focus over to motive rather than the simple question of whether they are lying or not. Sure, in Knight's case she's got a clear motive to maintain the claim. But we don't have to look for motives. We just have to look for evidence of misdirection or deception regardless of potential motive. Where there is the propensity in a field -- for whatever reason -- to fabricate or embellish claims, then the proper application of empirical control must develop observations that falsify the hypothesis that the claims are fabricated.
 
Judy Zebra Knight, the cheater who claimed to channel Ramtha, a knight from 35,000 years ago, while spoke with an Indian-like accent? She's still out there making lots of money.

Thanks so much for the data! That is exactly who I was thinking of.

It is so depressingly familiar that charlatans like her continue to bilk the public year after year after year. Just like this silly reincarnation proof that only makes sense if you already believe in reincarnation.
 
And yet we still have the defense, "Sure, I may be lying, but what would be my purpose?" Or its variant, "She has no reason to lie, so I believe her." They shift the focus over to motive rather than the simple question of whether they are lying or not. Sure, in Knight's case she's got a clear motive to maintain the claim. But we don't have to look for motives. We just have to look for evidence of misdirection or deception regardless of potential motive. Where there is the propensity in a field -- for whatever reason -- to fabricate or embellish claims, then the proper application of empirical control must develop observations that falsify the hypothesis that the claims are fabricated.

Thanks so much for the data! That is exactly who I was thinking of.

It is so depressingly familiar that charlatans like her continue to bilk the public year after year after year. Just like this silly reincarnation proof that only makes sense if you already believe in reincarnation.

She was mentioned in Carl Sagan's book Broca's Brain. That's the way I learnt about her. If I remember well she had total control over the kind of questions she would be asked in every interview she'd give parading this Ramtha character of hers. Questions regarding the real language spoken in that time, what they ate and how did they cook it, the way the material culture was, the kind of illnesses they suffered and how they coped with them; all of that would be out of the picture for obvious reasons.

And that was what "Buddha" should have done with Joe when he evoked Turkoid proto-Joe. They were making dinner then, what he'd expected to eat? How were they dressed? What kind of war elements was he wearing or carryng? That "Turkoid" language, how did it resemble modern Turkish, its dialects or any other language of the Turkish family (it's not difficult to get the free collaboration of a linguist in these cases). And how well trained in Turkish was "Buddha" at the moment to pass judgement on what he was hearing. I have no problems understanding Spanish from 1420 onwards, but that from 1100 is very difficult to me. With a second language like English I hardly understand bits of Chaucer and I have a lot of problems with "modern" works like Shakespeare's. Where does "Buddha" stand to make the assertions he so easily drops here?

And again, where's the record? Why don't he exemplifies the "method" with his own records? I want to hear "Buddha" doing it.
 
So that's why I sometimes come up with the solution to a problem when I'm in the shower.

Yes, and why I've seen designs for things come into the office sketched out on cocktail napkins. Sam was notorious for this. His initial designs for things would always be sketches on convenience media, but were pure genius nonetheless. (Sam was a design engineer on the Apollo docking mechanism, back in the day.) Your best ideas -- i.e., your best cognition -- almost always come when you're not trying to make them come.

This memory recalling reminds me of this famous case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

Yes, there's a new book out on that whole tragedy. Back in the day it led to the spurt of very good research in the memory regression phenomenon that ended up finally debunking it.
 
Come to think of it ...

I have known a couple of cats who acted like dogs because they wagged their tails, played fetch, come when called, and drink out of the toilet.

Maybe these cats were actually dogs in a previous life.


Hey! You've got rethinking now. I knew a guy once who would emit a pig like grunt at times. Maybe Buddha has something here.:idea:
 
The procedure is described in the book Buddhist Scriptures by Conze.

Except that's not the procedure you used. You said it was meant to work only with people who already believed in past lives and were expecting the method to produce memories from it. You said you had to adapt the procedure to work with people who were not already predisposed to believe in its success. I asked you what you had done to verify that your modified procedure achieved the results you claim. You still have not told us. You seem to have just assumed it would work as desired.
 
That "Turkoid" language, how did it resemble modern Turkish, its dialects or any other language of the Turkish family (it's not difficult to get the free collaboration of a linguist in these cases). And how well trained in Turkish was "Buddha" at the moment to pass judgement on what he was hearing. I have no problems understanding Spanish from 1420 onwards, but that from 1100 is very difficult to me. With a second language like English I hardly understand bits of Chaucer and I have a lot of problems with "modern" works like Shakespeare's. Where does "Buddha" stand to make the assertions he so easily drops here?
A number of years ago I spent a week in Southeastern Kentucky. Some of the local people had such thick dialects that I could barely identify their speech as English, let alone understand what they were saying. That and they used words that we were not accustomed to hearing.

If you consider the probabilities involved in these stories, they seem pretty far-fetched. Not impossible, of course, because with billions of people and thousands of years, some pretty danged strange "coincidences" happen.
 
I miss Kumar.


There's a weird counterbalance here between Jabba's argument for immortality and Buddha's statements about reincarnation. Jabba went out of his way to put his "proof" into mathematical notation. I assume he thought it was a more convincing way to make his argument. Buddha, despite promises of empiricism, goes out of his way to avoid any such scientific-sounding stuff. He writes as though unverifiable stories should be accepted here as though they were fact. Jabba would only resort to anecdotes when all other avenues had been cut off.

I'm not sure what to make of any of it. The lesson appears to be that neither the appearance of sincerity or of scientific rigor are actually substitutes for repeatable and falsifiable evidence.
 

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