15 years?! That's it?!

[Guest]

Should we let an evil bastard continue to kill thousands upon thousands, if not millions, of people just because we might accidentally kill "scores?"

What kind of logic is that?

 

[a_unique_person]

Oh, and one more thing you blame-America-firsters need to get through your incredibly thick skulls:

When one nation attacks another nation. Every single death that occurs to them in retaliation is THEIR FAULT!

Got it? Can you comprehend that?

Every death in Germany during WWII was Hitler's fault.

Every death in Afghanistan was the Taliban's fault.

you don't seem to have much of a sense of history

with the cluster bombs, they have a very cheap and failure prone fuse. much of the civilian problem with them is the ones that don't go off, so that children find them etc. The least that could be done would be to make sure that they at least go off, without hanging around.

The US has not agreed to the land mine treaty, despite the fact that landmines are a scourge on much of the earth now.

 

[a_unique_person]

Should we let an evil bastard continue to kill thousands upon thousands, if not millions, of people just because we might accidentally kill "scores?"

What kind of logic is that?

once again, why this particular one, and why now? I am all in favour of a co-ordinated and legally established process to reduce tyranny in the world. cowboy ventures that are taken unilaterally won't be any sort of a long term solution.

 

[Guest]

you don't seem to have much of a sense of history

with the cluster bombs, they have a very cheap and failure prone fuse. much of the civilian problem with them is the ones that don't go off, so that children find them etc. The least that could be done would be to make sure that they at least go off, without hanging around.

The US has not agreed to the land mine treaty, despite the fact that landmines are a scourge on much of the earth now.

Hmmmm. You want the perfect weapon. Hey, I have an idea. Why don't you come up with a bomb that only kills bad guys! You'll make a killing, no pun intended.

As for the mines, there isn't much point to signing a treaty that says we will unilaterally disarm, aup.

And having been stationed in Guantanamo Bay, I can tell you that landmines still serve a very good purpose. Some of the fellas in South Korea will probably roger up on that, too.

 

[Guest]

I imagine you would be quite shocked and quite disappointed that a weapon that killed only bad guys didn't kill Americans, AUP...

 

[hammegk]

I have no doubt that aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaup would be certain that the device would kill only Americans.

 

[a_unique_person]

Hmmmm. You want the perfect weapon. Hey, I have an idea. Why don't you come up with a bomb that only kills bad guys! You'll make a killing, no pun intended.

As for the mines, there isn't much point to signing a treaty that says we will unilaterally disarm, aup.

And having been stationed in Guantanamo Bay, I can tell you that landmines still serve a very good purpose. Some of the fellas in South Korea will probably roger up on that, too.

who's purpose? does the military exist in isolation to the rest of the world. As for NK, the idea that their army could achieve anything more than the iraquis in the Gulf War is pretty laughable. but at least these mines are mostly in well defined areas. the real problem is the majority that are scattered around the world harming civilians every day.

There is no need for the US to have mines. Why don't the US just get out of guantanamo bay. It is a part of cuba anyway. And I can't see Cuba taking on the US militarily for the next thousand years or so.

but anyway, as i said, the main problem with the cluster bombs appears to be that so many of them don't go off, due to the cheap, shoddy firing mechanism used. they then hang around for years, harming civilians. maybe the US could at least ensure that if they are going to drop them, they will all go off at once. it's the little things that count.

 

[a_unique_person]

I imagine you would be quite shocked and quite disappointed that a weapon that killed only bad guys didn't kill Americans, AUP...

funnily enough, i don't actually want americans killed any more than anyone else. I just don't want the most powerful country in the world to be indifferent to the results of it's policies.

 

[Ed]

There is no need for the US to have mines. Why don't the US just get out of guantanamo bay. It is a part of cuba anyway. And I can't see Cuba taking on the US militarily for the next thousand years or so.

from security.org

"In December 1903, the United States leased the 45 square miles of land and water for use as a coaling station. A treaty reaffirmed the lease in 1934 granting Cuba and her trading partners free access through the bay, payment of $2,000 in gold per year, equating to $4,085 today, and a requirement that both the U.S. and Cuba must mutually consent to terminate the lease. "

We have a lease.

 

[Guest]

I forget who, but some comedian actually came up with a good solution to the problem of landmines in Cambodia (Kampuchea). He suggested that they buy all the Mad Cows from Great Britain and turn them loose in the Cambodian countryside....

Shhh. Don't tell PETA.

Ed is correct. We have a lease with Cuba in which both parties must agree to terminate. Guantanamo Bay serves as an excellent base of operations and training ground for the Navy and certain special forces.

While I was there, it also served an important role in South American drug interdiction.

 

[a_unique_person]

from security.org

"In December 1903, the United States leased the 45 square miles of land and water for use as a coaling station. A treaty reaffirmed the lease in 1934 granting Cuba and her trading partners free access through the bay, payment of $2,000 in gold per year, equating to $4,085 today, and a requirement that both the U.S. and Cuba must mutually consent to terminate the lease. "

We have a lease.

You call that a lease? Sounds like daylight robbery to me. How much coal are they dishing out there these days?

 

[a_unique_person]

Because it was believed that they were harbouring terrorists.

that's the really scarey bit.

 

[Roadtoad]

There is no need for the US to have mines. Why don't the US just get out of guantanamo bay. It is a part of cuba anyway. And I can't see Cuba taking on the US militarily for the next thousand years or so.

but anyway, as i said, the main problem with the cluster bombs appears to be that so many of them don't go off, due to the cheap, shoddy firing mechanism used. they then hang around for years, harming civilians. maybe the US could at least ensure that if they are going to drop them, they will all go off at once. it's the little things that count.

(1.) You can't be so naive as to believe that there's no need for the U.S. to have land mines. Frankly, if land mines mean that my son and my friends will come home, then I say lay as many as necessary.

The difference here, AUP, is that we generally send in personnel to remove our mines, while other forces do not. I've met people who worked on U.S. Government contracts removing these weapons. (Believe me, they get paid VERY WELL. Almost makes me want to take an EOD course and sign on.)

(2.) I'd rather see the U.S. maintain Guantanamo Bay. Once Castro is gone, it will make a good starting point for American Aid to rebuild Cuba.

(3.) Referring back to my first point, the U.S. has hired companies to locate unexploded ordnance, and remove it. I see no evidence that we won't do this in the future.

While I was stationed in Germany, we occasionally heard about unexploded ordnance being found in the weirdest of places, both Axis and Allied, including once in the middle of an American housing area. Pretty scary stuff. But that's the sort of thing you find in areas where wars have been fought. There's not a lot you can do about it, except try to go in and remove it once you've got evidence it's there.

What would you suggest, AUP? Should we bill the remaining shareholders of the I.G. Farben Company for the fuses of Nazi bombs that didn't go off when they hit, as applied to the situation I just mentioned? Should we do the same thing to Aerojet General, for cluster bombs or missles that don't explode as they should?

Yes, it is the little things that count. I'm hopeful, though, we won't need to worry about that in the coming weeks. Every once in a while, I get a glimmer of hope in the news. It always fades, but I still cling to the hope that family and friends can be on the next flight home.

 

[a_unique_person]

(1.) You can't be so naive as to believe that there's no need for the U.S. to have land mines. Frankly, if land mines mean that my son and my friends will come home, then I say lay as many as necessary.

while they might be handy, are they necessary?

The difference here, AUP, is that we generally send in personnel to remove our mines, while other forces do not. I've met people who worked on U.S. Government contracts removing these weapons. (Believe me, they get paid VERY WELL. Almost makes me want to take an EOD course and sign on.)

And sometimes not. And even if they an area is cleaned, not all of them are found. Have they finished cleaning up vietnam yet?

(2.) I'd rather see the U.S. maintain Guantanamo Bay. Once Castro is gone, it will make a good starting point for American Aid to rebuild Cuba.

And what do the cubans think of that?

(3.) Referring back to my first point, the U.S. has hired companies to locate unexploded ordnance, and remove it. I see no evidence that we won't do this in the future.

While I was stationed in Germany, we occasionally heard about unexploded ordnance being found in the weirdest of places, both Axis and Allied, including once in the middle of an American housing area. Pretty scary stuff. But that's the sort of thing you find in areas where wars have been fought. There's not a lot you can do about it, except try to go in and remove it once you've got evidence it's there.

What would you suggest, AUP? Should we bill the remaining shareholders of the I.G. Farben Company for the fuses of Nazi bombs that didn't go off when they hit, as applied to the situation I just mentioned? Should we do the same thing to Aerojet General, for cluster bombs or missles that don't explode as they should?

Yes, it is the little things that count. I'm hopeful, though, we won't need to worry about that in the coming weeks. Every once in a while, I get a glimmer of hope in the news. It always fades, but I still cling to the hope that family and friends can be on the next flight home.

So why can't they at least make a better fuse for the cluster bomb? According to Human Rights Watch, about ten percent fail to go off. When the bomb is dropped, 90% going off is enough to do the job, I suppose. What about the 10% left that maim civilians?

 

[Roadtoad]

while they might be handy, are they necessary?

Better than us placing personnel, civilian and military, at risk.



And sometimes not. And even if they an area is cleaned, not all of them are found. Have they finished cleaning up vietnam yet?

The U.S. wasn't the only force placing mines.



And what do the cubans think of that?

Which Cubans? Those in Miami, or those in Cuba itself? How can we ask at this point and get an honest answer?


So why can't they at least make a better fuse for the cluster bomb? According to Human Rights Watch, about ten percent fail to go off. When the bomb is dropped, 90% going off is enough to do the job, I suppose. What about the 10% left that maim civilians?

That's why we send in EOD personnel to look for them, usually with such personnel under fire themselves. That's one of the reasons they get paid so well.

(Sorry, tried to get this post to separate AUP's comments from mine. Didn't work. I hate being a newbie...)

 

[The Fool]

That's why we send in EOD personnel to look for them, usually with such personnel under fire themselves. That's one of the reasons they get paid so well.

(Sorry, tried to get this post to separate AUP's comments from mine. Didn't work. I hate being a newbie...)

Sorry...Damn hard not to laugh at that one.....so you are saying that US forces pick up after themselves? When a cluster bomb armed aircraft is cruising around for targets of opportunity do you imagine someone goes back later to pick up the duds???. I would believe they would clean areas they wanted to use themselves after a battle, but that is not the point with this diabolical problem with clusterbombs. You designed them, they are defective, they kill and maim civilians....Three facts, get over it and agitate your government to do something about it. You may as well be dropping poisoned candy bars......same effect.

 

[LillyThePink]

Luke - while my assertion may have offended you, I think you should read what I actually type and not what you want to attack. I specifically stated ALLIED troops, not the US military with regards my human life remarks. Please be clear about what I am actually saying before you attack it. Thanks

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by LillyThePink:

ummm yes I do remember - so you're standing by George's "who ever funds blah blah whoever harbours blah blah" ?

Coz if so, you all need to bomb the Irish Catholics in NY for funding the IRA for fricking years before you start on anyone overseas.

The role played by American money in funding the IRA is exagerrated. The IRA still had to rely on drugdealing and bank robbery, as well as support from the likes of Colonel Ghaddafi to fund their campaign of terror. In any case a distinction should be made between the actions of regimes and governments and the actions of individuals.

 

[LillyThePink]

In any case a distinction should be made between the actions of regimes and governments and the actions of individuals.

So we shouldn't have gone after the Taliban??

Sauce for the goose?

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by LillyThePink:

So we shouldn't have gone after the Taliban??

Sauce for the goose?

Erm, the Taliban regime did indeed harbour and support terrorism, os military action was justifiable. Your point being?