15 years?! That's it?!

[The Fool]

I simply can't believe it.
This sounds a lot like something the Taliban would have done...

For God's sake, I thought this was about defending the values of western civilization...

Calm down...He's just trolling. Maybe if it was his relative that did it he would not be so keen on the "kill the family" troll line...

 

[LillyThePink]

All this outrage at the guy only getting 15 years... for being part of a plot killing 3,000 civilians. You do of course realise that when the US & co started dropping bombs on Afghanistan, more civilans were killed there than in the entire 9/11 totals.

Of course, if the Allies do it, then civilians are just collateral damage, eh?

 

[a_unique_person]

Would you like to live in a country where criminals are treated that way?

i think you would like saudi arabia.

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Lilly the Pink:

All this outrage at the guy only getting 15 years... for being part of a plot killing 3,000 civilians. You do of course realise that when the US & co started dropping bombs on Afghanistan, more civilans were killed there than in the entire 9/11 totals.

Of course, if the Allies do it, then civilians are just collateral damage, eh?

Have you reliable figures for to back up your assertion?

Judging by the happy and relieved faces on the streets of Kabul after the collapse of the Taliban regime, ordinary Afghanis probably supported the allied air strikes.

 

[a_unique_person]

U.S. Cluster Bombs Killed Civilians in Afghanistan
New Report Illustrates Dangers for Iraq
(Washington, D.C., December 18, 2002) During its air war in Afghanistan, the United States dropped nearly a quarter-million cluster bomblets that killed or injured scores of civilians, especially children, both during and after strikes, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“As war looms in Iraq, the United States should learn from the lessons of its Afghanistan air war....It should not use cluster bombs at all until the dud rate has been brought way down. At the very least, it should never use cluster bombs near inhabited towns and villages.”
Bonnie Docherty
Researcher in the Arms Division of Human Rights Watch

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 65-page report, Fatally Flawed: Cluster Bombs and Their Use by the United States in Afghanistan, says that although the United States made some efforts to reduce the civilian harm caused by its cluster bombs in Afghanistan, the fundamental problems of the weapon remained.
Human Rights Watch found that the United States did not take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties, as required by international humanitarian law, when it used cluster bombs in or near populated areas. U.S. cluster bombs also left an estimated 12,400 explosive duds—de facto antipersonnel landmines—that continue to take civilian lives to this day.

Human Rights Watch has previously documented the harm to civilians from U.S. cluster bombs in the 1991 Gulf War and 1999 Yugoslav air campaign. The new Human Rights Watch report found that the humanitarian side effects of cluster bombs were less serious in Afghanistan than in these earlier conflicts, in part due to the smaller number of bombs used.

“As war looms in Iraq, the United States should learn from the lessons of its Afghanistan air war,” said Bonnie Docherty, researcher in the Arms Division of Human Rights Watch and the author of the report. “It should not use cluster bombs at all until the dud rate has been brought way down. At the very least, it should never use cluster bombs near inhabited towns and villages.”

The new report presents the findings of a month-long mission to Afghanistan. It also compares recent use of cluster bombs to that in the Gulf War and Kosovo.

In Afghanistan, the United States restricted cluster bomb targets more than in the past and employed new technology, notably the wind corrected munitions dispenser, to improve the accuracy of these weapons. It also used fewer cluster bombs, dropping 1,228 cluster bombs, which contained 248,056 bomblets, in Afghanistan. Allied forces dropped 61,000 bombs with twenty million bomblets in the Gulf War and 1,765 bombs with 295,000 bomblets in Yugoslavia.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/12/arms1218.htm

 

[Shane Costello]

From the Human Rights Watch link:


"During its air war in Afghanistan, the United States dropped nearly a quarter-million cluster bomblets that killed or injured scores of civilians, especially children, both during and after strikes, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today."

So how many were actually killed? Whatever the number, it was certainly less than those killed at the WTC, if the Human Rights Watch figures are anything to go by.

 

[LillyThePink]

Define reliable, Shaun

http://www.comw.org/pda/0201oef.html#appendix1

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm

http://monkeyfist.com/articles/800

http://www.geocities.com/stuart323_99/bombing_casualties.htm

http://www.comw.org/pda/0201strangevic.html#1.2.1

World wide condemnation of the bombing of Afghanistan civilians:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,583795,00.html

I hope any of those similar figures will do.

 

[a_unique_person]

Marhama, 25, who sits in front of her surviving children, suffered a serious leg injury during a cluster bomb attack in Ainger on November 17,
2001. Her leg brace is partially visible. Marhama’s husband and 10-year-old son died in the attack. © Bonnie Docherty / Human Rights Watch,
2002.

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/us-afghanistan/

 

[Occasional Chemist]

So how many were actually killed? Whatever the number, it was certainly less than those killed at the WTC, if the Human Rights Watch figures are anything to go by.

Some say that there were around 3800 civilian deaths .

 

[LillyThePink]

So how many were actually killed? Whatever the number, it was certainly less than those killed at the WTC, if the Human Rights Watch figures are anything to go by.

Oddly enough, there are only estimates, Shaun..

The Pentagon has not kept an accounting of civilian casualties from U.S. airstrikes in Afghanistan since Operation Enduring Freedom began, the U.S. Central Command said yesterday.

from http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A59457-2002Jan3?language=printer

Also, I found this interesting... could apply anywhere, really eh?

"All they're doing is reporting the claims of the villagers," the official said of the U.N. statement.

Doesn't make it untrue, though, does it??

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Lilly the Pink:

Define reliable, Shaun

Well the WTC figures have to be considered more reliable than the ones for Afghani civilians, given the conditions under which both were compiled.

I'm not arguing that civilians weren't killed by the allied operations in Afghanistan, and I'd concede that it's possible the numbers far exceeded those for the WTC attack. What I do believe is that to compaere the accidental death of civilians in Afghanistan and the deliberate targetting of civilians by terrorists is sick moral relativism.

 

[LillyThePink]

Judging by Pentagon statements at the time and strategic bombing into heavily populated areas, I don't think that the Afghanistani deaths were particularly accidental.

*shrug* Sick is only your opinion, hon. Thanks for your concession, anyway.

 

[a_unique_person]

Well the WTC figures have to be considered more reliable than the ones for Afghani civilians, given the conditions under which both were compiled.

I'm not arguing that civilians weren't killed by the allied operations in Afghanistan, and I'd concede that it's possible the numbers far exceeded those for the WTC attack. What I do believe is that to compaere the accidental death of civilians in Afghanistan and the deliberate targetting of civilians by terrorists is sick moral relativism.

so if you are accidentally killed, then that isn't so bad.

 

[LillyThePink]

ummm.. can you edit your post, AUP.. it looks like I said your quote!!

Thanks

 

[Richard G]

I like your images AUP. Lets look at some more. (For the oblivious, these are WMD victims of Saddam.) Could be you next. Is the Human Rights Watch keeping an eye on these?

 

[LillyThePink]

Do you have a point, Richard?

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by a_unique_person:

so if you are accidentally killed, then that isn't so bad.

Strawman.

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Lilly the Pink:

Judging by Pentagon statements at the time and strategic bombing into heavily populated areas, I don't think that the Afghanistani deaths were particularly accidental.

Civilians were not deliberately targetted.

 

[LillyThePink]

The evidence would suggest that whilst what you are saying may be true, Civilians were not particularly avoided either.

 

[Shane Costello]

Originaly posted by LillyThePink:

The evidence would suggest that whilst what you are saying may be true, Civilians were not particularly avoided either.

Because it was believed that they were harbouring terrorists.