15 years?! That's it?!

[LillyThePink]

Well, what can I say. That's obviously a justification for killing women and children.

Are you serious?

 

[Shane Costello]

Well if you harbour belligerants in a warzone during a war, you hardly qualify as an "innocent civilian".

 

[LillyThePink]

Shane, I gave you evidence of the figures - would you care to show evidence that the women and children who were killed running away from a blast bomb were in any way linked with the Al Quaeda regime?

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by LillyThe Pink:

Shane, I gave you evidence of the figures - would you care to show evidence that the women and children who were killed running away from a blast bomb were in any way linked with the Al Quaeda regime?

Firstly, I was referring to the "civilian" casualties around Tora-Bora. Secondly, I'm not denying inadvertant deaths occured elsewhere. In the instance you're referring to, civilians were not deliberately targetted. Can you expand on your assertion that civilian deaths were not particularly avoided?

 

[rikzilla]

I can't understand the american obsession with making prisons as brutal as possible. It has not been shown to reduce crime. Belgium, for all the wisecracks about it being like a motel, has a lower imprisonment rate than the US. Now, which system appears to be working better?

Kneejerk liberalism in all it's glory.

Poor offenders...let's coddle them with TV's and a law library.

A prison is a brutal place for brutal people. Simple as that. Anyone ever see "OZ" on HBO?? The facility is modern and quite humane. It's the people...the tribalism...the predators that make it brutal. Take all the murderers out and throw in a bunch of AUP and Shanek-type pseudo intellectual liberals and the closest thing to brutality will be the chess tournaments.

American prisons are not nearly as brutal as the prisoners themselves.

-zilla

BTW...just in case of a breakdown in civilization...all supermax prisons should be built on top of an atomic bomb....so that the last cop out the door can lock them all in and set the timer.

 

[LillyThePink]

Firstly, I was referring to the "civilian" casualties around Tora-Bora. Secondly, I'm not denying inadvertant deaths occured elsewhere. In the instance you're referring to, civilians were not deliberately targetted. Can you expand on your assertion that civilian deaths were not particularly avoided?

Perhaps if you had been more accurate in your original reference, we could have been clearer on what we were actually discussing, Shane. If you meant civilians in a particular area (Tora Bora), then I can understand your position better. As it stands, I am referring to the unacceptable levels of civilian casualties during the bombing campaign of Afghanistan generally, rather than a specific instance, ergo your remark about the instance I'm referring to has me confused.....perhaps you could clarify before I respond.

 

[iain]

Kneejerk liberalism in all it's glory.

Poor offenders...let's coddle them with TV's and a law library.

A prison is a brutal place for brutal people. Simple as that.

rik,
Your approach sounds like kneejerk conservatism. Where is your evidence to back up the benefits of a harsh prison sentence? Does it result in a lower reoffending rate? Does it reduce the overall numer people in prison, due to fear of going inside? Does it lead to lower levels of crime?

As for your assertion that prisoners are "brutal people", that's just laughable (though maybe US prisons turn normal people into brutal people). A small proportion of prisoners are in prison for violent offences. The vast majority are not (at least, that is the case in Europe; let me know if this is not true in the US).

By what definition is the pickpocket, fraudster, loan defaulter, shoplifter etc. "brutal"?

 

[Guest]

And what are the estimates of civilian casualties during the Taliban's rise to power? And what are the estimates of innocents killed under the Taliban regime? Has the media researched that as deeply and as well as how many civilians were killed by U.S. bombs?

If a survey was done of the Afghani population tomorrow, how do you think the numbers would come out to the question, "Are you better off today than you were two years ago?"

 

[Guest]

Oh, and one more thing you blame-America-firsters need to get through your incredibly thick skulls:

When one nation attacks another nation. Every single death that occurs to them in retaliation is THEIR FAULT!

Got it? Can you comprehend that?

Every death in Germany during WWII was Hitler's fault.

Every death in Afghanistan was the Taliban's fault.

 

[LillyThePink]

Surely you guys must have some stats on the Taliban's rise to power - you're the ones who helped them chased the Ruskies out, no?

And I fail to see the relevance. The point I'm making is that the Aliied forces appear to have a terrifying lack of respect for human life, be it civilian, or "friendlies"... the stats are quite scary.

 

[LillyThePink]

Every death in Afghanistan was the Taliban's fault.

Is your statement here that the clerics of the Taliban were all actually members of Al Quaeda?

 

[rikzilla]

rik,
Your approach sounds like kneejerk conservatism. Where is your evidence to back up the benefits of a harsh prison sentence? Does it result in a lower reoffending rate? Does it reduce the overall numer people in prison, due to fear of going inside? Does it lead to lower levels of crime?

As for your assertion that prisoners are "brutal people", that's just laughable (though maybe US prisons turn normal people into brutal people). A small proportion of prisoners are in prison for violent offences. The vast majority are not (at least, that is the case in Europe; let me know if this is not true in the US).

By what definition is the pickpocket, fraudster, loan defaulter, shoplifter etc. "brutal"?

Well,

You aren't a watcher of the "OZ" series on HBO...it was in that context that I posted. OZ is a fictional "Supermax" prison....only the most dangerous and violent people go there. The show is all about their interaction with each other. My point is the PLACE is not brutal...only the people there are.

you'd have to know the series tho to know what I mean.

-zilla

 

[Guest]

Surely you guys must have some stats on the Taliban's rise to power - you're the ones who helped them chased the Ruskies out, no?

And I fail to see the relevance. The point I'm making is that the Aliied forces appear to have a terrifying lack of respect for human life, be it civilian, or "friendlies"... the stats are quite scary.

Allied forces appear to have a terrifying lack of respect for human life! Jesus H. Christ.

Lilly, read this.

I think you will find that RAWA was actually against the U.S. bombing Afghanistan prior to our retaliation. However, they did document the cruelties of the Taliban in the link above.

Read it. Then come back and talk about respect for human life.

 

[Guest]

Is your statement here that the clerics of the Taliban were all actually members of Al Quaeda?

The Taliban were harboring Al Queda and bin Laden. REMEMBER?

 

[LillyThePink]

ummm yes I do remember - so you're standing by George's "who ever funds blah blah whoever harbours blah blah" ?

Coz if so, you all need to bomb the Irish Catholics in NY for funding the IRA for fricking years before you start on anyone overseas.

 

[Guest]

Hey, look! Apparently Taliban artillery shells are drawn to civilians, too!

Hundreds of unarmed civilians have been the victims of indiscriminate killings by the Taliban in the last two years. In November 1995, Amnesty International again warned the international community of its growing concern for the safety of the civilian population of Kabul after a renewed bombardment of the city in which at least 57 unarmed civilians were killed and over150 were injured in the residential areas of the city in three days of indiscriminate rocket and artillery barrages fired from Taliban positions south of Kabul. .... In one day alone, on 11 November 1995, at least 36civilians were killed when over 170 rockets as well as shells hit civilians areas. A salvo crashed into Foruzga Market forcing the shoppers and traders to run for cover. Rockets struck the Taimani district where many people from other parts of Kabul have settled. Other residential areas hit by artillery and rocket attacks were the Bagh Bala district in the north west of Kabul and Wazir Akbar Khan where much of the city’s small foreign community live. .... Scores of civilians have been killed in the fighting north of Kabul since the Taliban captured the city on 27 September 1996. For example, bombs dropped from a Taliban plane on 24 October 1996 killed at least 20people, mostly children, in the village of Kalakan, north of Kabul. Airraids have also been carried out by the anti-Taliban alliance. In several instances bombs dropped from planes have hit civilian areas with no sign of military activities, killing several people including children.

AI, November 18,1996

Did you catch the "scores of civilians have been killed" phrase in there?

 

[Roadtoad]

rik,
Your approach sounds like kneejerk conservatism. Where is your evidence to back up the benefits of a harsh prison sentence? Does it result in a lower reoffending rate? Does it reduce the overall numer people in prison, due to fear of going inside? Does it lead to lower levels of crime?

As for your assertion that prisoners are "brutal people", that's just laughable (though maybe US prisons turn normal people into brutal people). A small proportion of prisoners are in prison for violent offences. The vast majority are not (at least, that is the case in Europe; let me know if this is not true in the US).

By what definition is the pickpocket, fraudster, loan defaulter, shoplifter etc. "brutal"?

iain, I've actually had to go into California prisons. Sorry, but Rik has the right of it.

Guys in California prisons, if they want to exercise, post a guard. It's to keep people from sneaking up and knifing the others. (You'd be surprised what they can make weapons out of in prisons.)

I've known prison guards who have told me of friends walking along the catwalks in Folsom Prison, only to suddenly find themselves skewered with a homemade spear.

Ever heard of a matchhead bomb? All you need is an old toilet paper roll, a little TP, and a lot of matchbooks. It takes time, but, hey, that's all these guys have.

Budget constraints have forced non-violent criminals to be housed with the violent. When violence is the only language spoken, you get real fluent, real quick. Add to this the rate of recidivism in California, and the refusal of many to implement much needed penal reform, (which, oddly enough, would include the profiling of individual prisoners, based upon known data of their activities, and the Three Strikes law which usually sets liberal teeth on edge), and you begin to see why there's problems.

One of the reasons I wanted to leave my last gig was that it got me out of running loads into prisons. The thought that if I were taken hostage by these guys, that no one would negotiate for me, forced me to choose between earning a living or being there for my family.

No, iain, et al, they do their best to keep prisons clean, neat, safe, secure, but you do need to remember just what sort of people we put into our prisons to begin with.

 

[Guest]

Coz if so, you all need to bomb the Irish Catholics in NY for funding the IRA for fricking years before you start on anyone overseas.

And don't forget Boston Catholics.

It is funny how easily some people will nod their heads in agreement when someone argues the U.S. "deserved" to have the WTC attacked, or at least that it was understandable that someone would attack this totally non-military target, and yet these same people are beyond comprehending that some civilians are going to get killed during a legitimate military action against an aggressor nation, and believe that it is all somehow OUR fault.

Post every freaking picture of innocent civilians killed by U.S. bombs you want, folks. There are literally millions-to-one who have died by the hands of their evil despots.

 

[Smalso]

Luke:

Are you saying that since the Taliban killed innocent civilians the forces of right and righteousness represented by the US are justified in killing innocent civilians as long as we kill fewer than they did? Does this mean that the US was justified in burning out villages and killing children and old people in Viet Nam because someone in the village might be harboring VC? Criminals kill innocent people every day. Does this mean the police are justified in killing a few themselves? I don't believe this is you position, but your reasoning seems to lead there. Could you please clarify?

 

[Guest]

Luke:

Are you saying that since the Taliban killed innocent civilians the forces of right and righteousness represented by the US are justified in killing innocent civilians as long as we kill fewer than they did? Does this mean that the US was justified in burning out villages and killing children and old people in Viet Nam because someone in the village might be harboring VC? Criminals kill innocent people every day. Does this mean the police are justified in killing a few themselves? I don't believe this is you position, but your reasoning seems to lead there. Could you please clarify?

Smalso, first of all, I was deeply offended by Lilly's assertion that our military had no regard for human life. By that, she is trying to make a moral equivalency between the U.S. and all the evil bastards in the world.

Second of all, the U.S. takes great pains to minimize civilian casualties. The evil bastards do not.

Sometimes war is necessary. Anyone who thinks it can be avoided is either a complete idiot, or on the side of the evil bastards.

Because war is necessary, some innocent people are going to die. It is currently impossible to avoid that. It may always be impossible.

Third of all, the United States is not perfect. But I believe we have done far, far more right than wrong. I'm sick and tired of people pointing fingers at the mistakes we have made when the atrocities committed by the evil bastards make such finger-pointing sheer lunacy and willful blindness. It's like complaining about stubbing your toe while the guy next to you has had his arms and legs chopped off.

As for "does this mean the police are justified in killing a few themselves," you are implying that the "police" kill innocent people just because they can. That is total ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

Now, if a policeman is chasing a felon who is a serious threat to society, one who may have even killed a dozen people, and in the course of the shootout or chase, an innocent civilian is killed by the policeman, IT'S THE FELON'S FAULT! And it certainly doesn't mean we should stop chasing down threats to society.

Why some people can't understand that is beyond my own understanding.