Laser Beams and Holograms - does anyone actually believe this obvious bull ...?

scooby

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It is claimed on here that the 911 Truth movement is a homogenous collection of arguments represented by the theory that a space-beam weapon was used to disintegrate the WTC and Holograms were used instead of planes and real planes were used and explosives were used to bring down the WTC.

This is a classic disinformation technique, sometimes termed 'poisoning the well' through the construction of 'straw man' arguments.

Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where adverse information about someone is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that person is about to say. Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem. The term was first used with this sense [1] by John Henry Newman in his Apologia Pro Vita Sua [2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

Its name is derived from the practice of using straw men in combat training. In such training, a scarecrow is made in the image of the enemy with the single intent of attacking it.[1] It is occasionally called a straw dog fallacy,[2] scarecrow argument, or wooden dummy argument.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You will see the frantic and persistent use of this tactic here on this forum, by posters claiming to be honest skeptics who will repeatedly frame the argument in terms of space beams and holograms from outer space, often including in the same post, the names of people like Prof Steve Jones or David Ray Griffin - who claim no such thing, but implying that they do.

This can be no accidental mistake for somebody familiar with their work, as all who post on here claim to be.

To illustrate the point further, imagine that a crime has been committed, say a person has been murdered in an alleyway - they have what appears to be a gunshot wound to the head.

You are a Detective charged with investigating the case, with the hope of bringing a successful prosecution of the crime.

An immediate line of inquiry quickly emerges, as a witness comes forward who saw a hooded stranger fire a gun at the victim and run away, suggesting that the person has been shot. You live in a small town, and only one person is known to have a gun, someone with a well known history of violence - suggesting an immediate suspect. However the person who owns the gun, is a wealthy and well connected figure in town and word quickly gets out of the emerging scandal.

Nevertheless, you proceed with your investigation, but before you can bring this suspect in for questioning, another witness suddenly emerges - a witness claiming to have also been in the alleyway that night, but saw no such person fire a gun. Instead, what they saw, was a mysterious beam of light that came down from outer space, and struck the victim to the ground.

Friends of the suspect, immediately point to this new witness as proof that your initial line of inquiry is foolish, as it is a well known fact that the primary suspect owns no such space beam weapon technology.

Which line of inquiry would you pursue?
Do you shrug and drop the case?
Or do you raise a skeptical eyebrow, stroke your chin, and say ... "Hmmm"?

I mean - what would Columbo do?

So in summary, there's a lot of bull**** bandied around on here - back to the question in the thread title - who, if anyone, thinks that there is any merit to the theory that a top secret space-beam weapon destroyed the world trade center, and that holograms were used instead of real planes?

Anyone?

I think I've seen one.

And if anyone does, do they have any suggestions as to how we might verify the existence of this unknown technology?

Because you see, in stark contrast to the work of Prof Steve Jones and David Ray Griffin - the space-beam weapon theory presents a problem. No such device is known to exist, and until its existence can be proven, no further progress can be made along this line of inquiry.
 
It is claimed on here that the 911 Truth movement is a homogenous collection of arguments represented by the theory that a space-beam weapon was used to disintegrate the WTC and Holograms were used instead of planes and real planes were used and explosives were used to bring down the WTC.
Source?

This is a strawman.
 
You will see the frantic and persistent use of this tactic here on this forum, by posters claiming to be honest skeptics who will repeatedly frame the argument in terms of space beams and holograms from outer space, often including in the same post, the names of people like Prof Steve Jones or David Ray Griffin - who claim no such thing, but implying that they do.
Source?

This is a strawman.
 
And to further illustrate the analogy, or the problem, take your pick - here's the 'witness who saw the space beam' giving her account ...

[SIZE=-1] Dr. Judy Wood is the lone 'scientific' pillar behind the theory that directed energy beams demolished the world trade center towers. Dr. Greg Jenkins, a physicist, poses a few simple questions to Dr. Wood regarding her research. The full interview was left uncut to allow the viewer to fully and accurately assess the credibility of Dr. Judy Wood and her work. [/SIZE]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-558096240694803017
 
I've seen many people say that the problem with "twoofers" is that they can't get to agree on almost anything. Then we show up quite a bit of examples of mutually exclusive claims, which only has in common that they are equally lacking of evidence.

That "laser beam" comes up as one example of this, is because that has indeed been claimed by at least one twoofer. Can you give us one example where any skeptic has equalled that to mean that the entire twoofer movement agreed to this?
 
So in summary, there's a lot of bull**** bandied around on here - back to the question in the thread title - who, if anyone, thinks that there is any merit to the theory that a top secret space-beam weapon destroyed the world trade center, and that holograms were used instead of real planes?

Anyone?

I think I've seen one.
Ace Baker, Judy Wood, Morgan Reynolds, Jim Fetzer, Wokeman, Andrew Johnson, Micpsi, CB_Brooklyn, Fallious, utopiated...

for starters.
 
And if anyone does, do they have any suggestions as to how we might verify the existence of this unknown technology?

Because you see, in stark contrast to the work of Prof Steve Jones and David Ray Griffin - the space-beam weapon theory presents a problem. No such device is known to exist, and until its existence can be proven, no further progress can be made along this line of inquiry.
We do have Beam Weapons. OOPS, they are not secret. The US has shot down missiles with a "beam weapon". The US has tested a "beam weapon" to stop or disrupt crowds.

If you remember Reagan and how everyone knew he was nuts about "star wars" beam weapon to destroy incoming ICBM missiles. So in 1986 we pumped up our scientist pool, engineers, and we worked on developing and learning how to aim "beam weapons". Look it up, we can shoot down missiles. We can move crowds. The secret 'beam weapon' is real. You need to google better! But what CTist is capable of any credible research on 9/11? You know this right?

Stay tuned for why "beam weapons" would not do the job on 9/11. Punt/Pass/or Kick...
 
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Funny thing is, Judy Wood was the darling of the entire Trooth movement. Every single Troother I came across used her amazingly incompetent work as if had been handed down on stone tablets.

But like others have said, I don't think you really understand the meaning of "straw man" since you used two glaring ones in your OP.
 
Source?

This is a strawman.

Source? LOL?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums

Its examples you're after, this lots from just one thread ....

Really? Who here is preventing anyone from looking at evidence, and how are the preventing it? Everyone here gladly looks into such evidence, and even routinely post links to new truther claims. Any and all ideas, no matter how crazy, are discussed and given merit they often don't even deserve.

Everyone? If everyone means a very small number of people who can't even agree amongst themselves on all the details and theories (4 planes, 3 planes, no planes, super space lasers), some of whom are clearly insane, then I guess I'll have to agree.

Classic tin hat response. The big bad evil government, the same government that was able to pull off the biggest hoax in U.S. history and murder 3000 people. The big bad evil government who has the skill and resources to (pick one)

- Ram robotically controlled planes into the WTC.
- Rig the WTC with explosives w/o anyone knowing
- Direct an energy beam from space on the WTC
- Perform mass hypnosis to make people think planes actually rammed the WTC
- Destroyed WTC 7 with a missile
(sorry if I missed your personal favorite).


This same government is not smart enough to track down and swat brave skepticalcriticalguy and his little friends and silence them.

You are a piece of work, my friend.

Ahem, that is YOUR side's script, not ours. You may not subscribe to it personally, but space beams, faked planes on videos, etc etc are all part of your side's script.

Are you denying that there are "no-planers" in the "Truth Movement"?


Denial of all of the above, and what a howler ...

It would be a straw man if we debated the claims of Jones and Griffin by attributing no-plane theories to them and then debunking the no-plane theories. That's not what we do.

We debate the no-plane claims with the people who embrace them.

We debate Jones' and Griffin's claims with the people who embrace them.

It's a straw man argument to falsely label someone's legitimate argument a straw man argument and then show why straw man arguments are fallacious.


Recursion ...?

Source?

This is a strawman.
 
Ace Baker, Judy Wood, Morgan Reynolds, Jim Fetzer, Wokeman, Andrew Johnson, Micpsi, CB_Brooklyn, Fallious, utopiated...

for starters.

I'm talking about the forum - I can think of only one person who may be supporting these theories here, yet they are mentioned by people such as yourself - neo-skeptics, repeatedly.

Why?

Who are you arguing with?
Not me for sure.
 
Yeah I saw the History Channel the other night on drilling and the man there said within 10 years we will be using lasers to drill our oil and gas wells.
These beams can cut through rock.

Judy Woods hypothesis isn't bad because it uses beam weapons it's bad because the power to do what she proposes would make an object realitivly easy to see floating above us. That and probably a million other thigns. (at least that's what I've gleaned)
 
I'm talking about the forum - I can think of only one person who may be supporting these theories here, yet they are mentioned by people such as yourself - neo-skeptics, repeatedly.

Why?

Who are you arguing with?
Not me for sure.

Ah, Half-Baked Bean Weapon theorists on JREF you mean?

No, they mostly have to scratch out their poor living amongst the thermite / missile / hologram / mini-nuke / pod / flyover loons on the CT forums and blogs. There's safety in numbers.
 
Source? LOL?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums

Its examples you're after, this lots from just one thread ....

Denial of all of the above, and what a howler ...

Recursion ...?
None of these quotes is a claim "that the 911 Truth movement is a homogenous collection of arguments represented by the theory that a space-beam weapon was used to disintegrate the WTC and Holograms were used instead of planes and real planes were used and explosives were used to bring down the WTC."

They are all accurate. None is a straw man.

The 9/11 Truth movement has its share of no-planers. It's inevitable that no-plane theories are going to be included in a list of persistent 9/11 conspiracy theories. It's hardly the most common theory addressed here.
 
Scooby, you just showed off examples why your OP was a strawman.

Everyone? If everyone means a very small number of people who can't even agree amongst themselves on all the details and theories (4 planes, 3 planes, no planes, super space lasers), some of whom are clearly insane, then I guess I'll have to agree.
As you actually -read- this, you will come to understand that the point is that he is is claiming the exact opposite of what it means to have a "homogenous collection of argument". The very definition of a group having a "homogenous collection of arguments" is that everyone agrees with them. Do you understand?

Ahem, that is YOUR side's script, not ours. You may not subscribe to it personally, but space beams, faked planes on videos, etc etc are all part of your side's script.
A sarcastic comment. He shows that it's part of the CT script, but he's not claiming everyone's in on it. Do you understand?

And then, you're socalled "best example", that you claim a howler:

It would be a straw man if we debated the claims of Jones and Griffin by attributing no-plane theories to them and then debunking the no-plane theories. That's not what we do.

We debate the no-plane claims with the people who embrace them.

We debate Jones' and Griffin's claims with the people who embrace them.

It's a straw man argument to falsely label someone's legitimate argument a straw man argument and then show why straw man arguments are fallacious.
Where in this post is it even implied that the entire truth movement embraces the no-plane theory. It isn't. Just read it straight out, and you'll see it's a true statement. There is nothing indicating here that mrc_hans believes the entire "truth" movement to be 'no-planers', and it's nothing less than pure dishonesty to suggest so.

So, once again, all you show here is lack of reading comprehension. Try again.
 
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It is claimed on here that the 911 Truth movement is a homogenous collection of arguments represented by the theory that a space-beam weapon was used to disintegrate the WTC and Holograms were used instead of planes and real planes were used and explosives were used to bring down the WTC.

This is a classic disinformation technique, sometimes termed 'poisoning the well' through the construction of 'straw man' arguments.


I don't think I've ever seen it implied here that EVERY Twoofer belives in space beams. As has already been mentioned in this thread, the funniest part about the movement is for such a tiny movement it already seems to have about a million splinter groups. Not every Twoofer is a nut preaching about space beam involvement that there's no evidence for. Some rant about controlled demolition (that there's no evidence for); some rant about stockmarket insiders having advanced info of the attacks (which there's no info for)...
 
I'm talking about the forum - I can think of only one person who may be supporting these theories here, yet they are mentioned by people such as yourself - neo-skeptics, repeatedly.

Why?
The people who believe in them tend to be very stubborn and obsessive and...quirky. They are bound to attract attention. Few are under the illusion that these theories are representative of a majority of Truthers. In fact, when arguing with these people, we often remind them of the fact that their fellow Truthers are laughing at them. This fringe is largely a source of humor and entertainment, and easy pickin's. It should be unremarkable that they get attention.

Who are you arguing with?
Not me for sure.
As I said in my quote that you posted with misplaced irony above, we argue with the people who believe in them (see TruthSeeker1234, Lyte Trip, and Killtown for examples).

When Steven Jones was the darling of the movement, he was getting a hell of a lot more attention here, but he hasn't done much since he wrote his paper, and that's been picked over in detail several times over already. (You should know that the treatment of his work was only slightly less harsh than that of Judy Wood.) Nevertheless, when people come arguing from the Steven Jones school of 9/11 conspiracy theories, we focus on their claims--we don't try to lump them in with no-planers.
 
It is claimed on here that the 911 Truth movement is a homogenous collection of arguments represented by the theory that a space-beam weapon was used to disintegrate the WTC and Holograms were used instead of planes and real planes were used and explosives were used to bring down the WTC.

What rubbish.

It's been stated here MANY times that twoofers cannot agree on a theory. In fact it's one of the main reasons why I know you guys are kooks.

If your evidence was strong there'd be a consensus on your side.
 
Like it or not, scooby - Judy Wood and Uncle Fetzer were once big names in your "movement."

Judy was the #1 twoofer engineer for a while until she went completely insane.

You'd think this would cause twoofers to step back and THINK for a minute or two...but few did.
 
Funny thing is, Judy Wood was the darling of the entire Trooth movement. Every single Troother I came across used her amazingly incompetent work as if had been handed down on stone tablets.


You use the word "was." Do they not point to her any more? (honest question, I don't pay attention to it).

I was thinking the same thing you mentioned. For a while, Wood was the one that CTists would point to as the "engineer that supported them." Do they still publicize her support now that she has clearly gone off the deep end?
 
Here’s a better analogy.

Two people are shot in broad daylight, witnessed by several people, filmed even. The assailant shoots themselves after the attack.

Detective sent to investigate takes all the statements and films. Upon further investigation the assailant is determined to have worked for the local mob boss and was sent on this mission to take out these two people. Coroner’s report indicates the 3 people all died due to fatal gunshot wounds.

Warrant is put out for Mob boss, case is closed. Mayor using the hit as a reason to start a war on mobsters.

Local teens who view the video think that the way the people were killed doesn’t look right, and demand the investigation be reopened. They also determine that a local Jewish businessman benefited from the assassination of these two people and demand that he be investigated. They also think maybe the mob boss at some point was seen near the mayor and therefore the mayor probably ordered this hit so as to increase his popularity or more likely so that he could declare marshal law and round up all the mob members, and enemies of the city.

The teens gain support among their peers and as a result more and more outlandish claims start to surface, from beam weapons and keebler elves to termites.

The original teens are pissed at these new teens for ruining their investigation and poisoning the well!
 
Funny thing is, Judy Wood was the darling of the entire Trooth movement. Every single Troother I came across used her amazingly incompetent work as if had been handed down on stone tablets.

Source?
 
You use the word "was." Do they not point to her any more? (honest question, I don't pay attention to it).

I was thinking the same thing you mentioned. For a while, Wood was the one that CTists would point to as the "engineer that supported them." Do they still publicize her support now that she has clearly gone off the deep end?

Judy was a superstar after her stupid billiard ball theory. I heard it quoted frequently and her name was always thrown out in response to "who are your engineers?"

These days most twoofers seem to answer "ummmmm...." "ahhhhh" to that question.
 
Fine. So from here on in, we can quote you Scooby, that you are NOT a "No-planer" and NOT a "Energy Beam Weapon" CT believer...correct?

TAM:)
 
Bear in mind, the question here is, other than Beachnut, does anyone on this forum think that the space beam theory, or the hologram theory is a reasonable theory that explains the destruction of the WTC?
 
It is claimed on here that the 911 Truth movement is a homogenous collection of arguments represented by the theory that a space-beam weapon was used to disintegrate the WTC and Holograms were used instead of planes and real planes were used and explosives were used to bring down the WTC.

This is a classic disinformation technique, sometimes termed 'poisoning the well' through the construction of 'straw man' arguments.

Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where adverse information about someone is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that person is about to say. Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem. The term was first used with this sense [1] by John Henry Newman in his Apologia Pro Vita Sua [2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

Its name is derived from the practice of using straw men in combat training. In such training, a scarecrow is made in the image of the enemy with the single intent of attacking it.[1] It is occasionally called a straw dog fallacy,[2] scarecrow argument, or wooden dummy argument.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You will see the frantic and persistent use of this tactic here on this forum, by posters claiming to be honest skeptics who will repeatedly frame the argument in terms of space beams and holograms from outer space, often including in the same post, the names of people like Prof Steve Jones or David Ray Griffin - who claim no such thing, but implying that they do.

This can be no accidental mistake for somebody familiar with their work, as all who post on here claim to be.

To illustrate the point further, imagine that a crime has been committed, say a person has been murdered in an alleyway - they have what appears to be a gunshot wound to the head.

You are a Detective charged with investigating the case, with the hope of bringing a successful prosecution of the crime.

An immediate line of inquiry quickly emerges, as a witness comes forward who saw a hooded stranger fire a gun at the victim and run away, suggesting that the person has been shot. You live in a small town, and only one person is known to have a gun, someone with a well known history of violence - suggesting an immediate suspect. However the person who owns the gun, is a wealthy and well connected figure in town and word quickly gets out of the emerging scandal.

Nevertheless, you proceed with your investigation, but before you can bring this suspect in for questioning, another witness suddenly emerges - a witness claiming to have also been in the alleyway that night, but saw no such person fire a gun. Instead, what they saw, was a mysterious beam of light that came down from outer space, and struck the victim to the ground.

Friends of the suspect, immediately point to this new witness as proof that your initial line of inquiry is foolish, as it is a well known fact that the primary suspect owns no such space beam weapon technology.

Which line of inquiry would you pursue?
Do you shrug and drop the case?
Or do you raise a skeptical eyebrow, stroke your chin, and say ... "Hmmm"?

I mean - what would Columbo do?

So in summary, there's a lot of bull**** bandied around on here - back to the question in the thread title - who, if anyone, thinks that there is any merit to the theory that a top secret space-beam weapon destroyed the world trade center, and that holograms were used instead of real planes?

Anyone?

I think I've seen one.

And if anyone does, do they have any suggestions as to how we might verify the existence of this unknown technology?

Because you see, in stark contrast to the work of Prof Steve Jones and David Ray Griffin - the space-beam weapon theory presents a problem. No such device is known to exist, and until its existence can be proven, no further progress can be made along this line of inquiry.
My only claim in this is I seem to be stepping in Scooby Doo again - have to watch where I walk!!:D
 
Bear in mind, the question here is, other than Beachnut, does anyone on this forum think that the space beam theory, or the hologram theory is a reasonable theory that explains the destruction of the WTC?

Judy Wood does (the twoofers' former #1 engineer). So does Fetzer (leader of the "scholars").

As for no planes....there's at least 1-2 twoofers here that do, as does Morgon Reynold, the "insider" from the Bush admin.

That's not an insignificant fringe of your "movement" scooby.
 
Bear in mind, the question here is, other than Beachnut, does anyone on this forum think that the space beam theory, or the hologram theory is a reasonable theory that explains the destruction of the WTC?

And since when does Beachnut believe in this? From what I've seen from his posts, he thinks it's as ridicolous as most other people.

The kind of beam weapons he's describing is -not- the kind of beam weapon that could take down WTC, if you had understood had you only read his post properly.

When will you start to actually read posts (not skim, read), so that you avoid making false claims?
 
Bear in mind, the question here is, other than Beachnut, does anyone on this forum think that the space beam theory, or the hologram theory is a reasonable theory that explains the destruction of the WTC?

Nope - but you left out other silly ones like "inside - job" joke, the "CD" silly thing, the "Jews did it" hate mongering, the "FDNY helped cover it up" slander, the "it was really missiles" moronosity and so many other examples of the incompetance, lack of any scientific knowledge and general stupidity of the best known to the least known troofer. Hope that helps you phrase your statement better - and try not to step in the Scooby Doo - it's really got a stench - sort of like the average twoofer.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :jaw-dropp
 
The whole CONtrolled demolitions CONspiracy movement, whatever form they take all display an ignorance of how real controlled demolitions work. Whether it be space beams they allege, conventional RDX based explosives (which ignite at 206 degrees C and could not have survived fire) Thermite / Thermate (which does not explode).

All they do is detract from the seriously flawed methods of the security services and the government in dealing with these terrorists.
 
And since when does Beachnut believe in this? From what I've seen from his posts, he thinks it's as ridicolous as most other people.

The kind of beam weapons he's describing is -not- the kind of beam weapon that could take down WTC, if you had understood had you only read his post properly.

When will you start to actually read posts (not skim, read), so that you avoid making false claims?
Did it surprise you he can not comprehend what he reads, or he means to mention me ironically? He missed the point.

I think the beam weapon, to vaporize steel, would take more energy than the earth can produce in given amount of time; I think someone came up with the total. The energy source does not exist. Judy Wood has not done one thing right on 9/11 except debunk Dr Jones' molten metal.
 
Bear in mind, the question here is, other than Beachnut, does anyone on this forum think that the space beam theory, or the hologram theory is a reasonable theory that explains the destruction of the WTC?
No, not even I.
 
Did it surprise you he can not comprehend what he reads, or he means to mention me ironically? He missed the point.
Not in the least. I do read this forum fairly often, you know. I just don't write much, because having to respond to pathetic lies like that too often will just depress me.
 
Oh my God....I'd never seen that full Judy Wood interview before.....

Oh my God. I dunno what to say.

Twoofers, how did you take this woman seriously at any point?

She belongs in a mental facility!
 
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This is so bizarre. First he makes the claim that "we" believe "they" all believe the same thing. Then he quotes a bunch of people who say the exact opposite and says "SEE".

See what? That your original post is completely wrong and you just proved it? Yes. I see that.
 

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