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IDF is responsible for the Oct 7 Killings

ahhell

Philosopher
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Apparently some folks belief this. Apparently some of the locals in in Oakland used it as reason to argue against condemning Hamas in the recent Oakland City Council meeting.


We also talk about why a City in CA feels like they need to say something about this but I'm more interested in how widespread this belief is.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/w...dents-deny-oct-7-and-praise-hamas/ar-AA1kJlQf

To be clear, this wasn't said by a council person but by a concerned citizen. Anyone who's been to a local government meeting knows that just about any kind of nut will show up.
 
******* Oakland.

:mad:

Literally praising Hamas as a legitimate resistance movement.

Such scumbags.
 
Ask the false flag believers why Hamas invested so much money in tunnels and acquired so many missiles and didn't invest time money or effort building bomb shelters for the citizens or invested in stocking up on food, water and fuel for citizens? How about a plan for hardening the hospitals and so on?

Nope, it was all invested in military readiness.
 
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Oakland is one of dozens of California cities who've screwed themselves with Rank-Choice voting, and the result has been grossly incompetent leadership in the mayor's office and city council. The result has been disastrous for the citizens as businesses have fled for greener pastures, along with the upper-middle class tech folks that kept many small businesses alive.

Some local councilman forced a vote on solidarity with Israel a few weeks back, and it was voted down:

https://www.montereycountyweekly.co...cle_453d55c8-72f2-11ee-844d-4fc6f74fe42b.html

This is a conspiracy of stupid. As if the IDF needs Monterey County's support, or cares what Oakland thinks. Mostly, this stuff is an excuse not to tend to important civic matters.
 
I think there is a thing going on here that seems to be true in a lot of discourse. Desire for there not to be shades of gray. On the right you see with Ukraine pretty easily. Their are reasonable arguments against involvement. Its not our fight, its to dangerous..There's arguments against the spending, its too much, there's no oversight...I don't generally agree with them but they aren't crazy. Then there's the folks that argue that Putin was justified, that Zelensky is crooked or even worse than Putin. Its like folks can't accept that Sure, the Ukrainian government isn't the best but Putin and his invasion are still totally wrong and worth fighting.

The version with Israel-Palestine on the left seems to be that not only is Israel the bad guy but Hamas are actually good guys and Israel is so bad they're willing to kill their own babies to justify killing Palestinians.
 
This CT is basically "Jews evil, dishonest devils who commit terrible false flags in order to justify committing genocide against poor innocent peaceful Gentiles."
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Ask the false flag believers why Hamas invested so much money in tunnels a....
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I see them keep claiming that Israel built the tunnels prior to pulling out in twenty years (or however long it was) ago.

Like the best CT's, it's only about 95% false, as there are one or two utility tunnels that were built during occupation. So they focus on those, and ignore the origin of the vast majority.
 
And if Israel did it, how did all of the hostages end up in Gaza?

Easily disprovable but that doesn't matter to some people.
 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67480680

The BBC has visually identified 10 groups, including PIJ, by their distinctive headbands and emblems training alongside Hamas during the Strong Pillar drills in footage posted on the messaging app Telegram.

Following the 7 October attack, five of the groups went on to post videos claiming to show them taking part in the assault. Three others issued written statements on Telegram claiming to have participated.

The role of these groups has come into sharp focus as pressure builds on Hamas to find dozens of women and children believed to have been taken as captives from Israel into Gaza by other factions on 7 October.

Three groups - PIJ, the Mujahideen Brigades and Al-Nasser Salah al-Deen Brigades - claim to have seized Israeli hostages, alongside Hamas, on that day.

Efforts to extend the temporary truce in Gaza were said to be hinging on Hamas locating those hostages.
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Another data point that Hamas's attack was a success for them, when they can muddy the waters like this.
The IDF is very much reacting exactly the way they wanted it to, playing into the terrorists hands.
If you want to make up a good False Flag CT, it helps a lot when your villains have a good "qui bono?" .
 
Don't assume malevolence for what can adequately be explained by incompetence (or in this case it seems, possibly sexism):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67958260

Perhaps the significance of the intelligence got diluted with other information pouring in from the border?

Perhaps it's just a case of hindsight bias?

To be absolutely clear: I am not implying that the IDF is responsible for the barbaric actions of the Hamas extremists on 7th Oct. 2023.
 
The fault would (is) then with the Leadership, i.e. government that decided to ignore all threads.

If you go via a pure "Cui bono", Netanyahu 100% benefitted politically and personally from not preventing the Oct 7th attack.

Until we see some evidence that the Israeli government did something, anything to prevent the attack, it is fait to assume that it deliberately accepted the risk of one.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
The fault would (is) then with the Leadership, i.e. government that decided to ignore all threads.

If you go via a pure "Cui bono", Netanyahu 100% benefitted politically and personally from not preventing the Oct 7th attack.

Until we see some evidence that the Israeli government did something, anything to prevent the attack, it is fait to assume that it deliberately accepted the risk of one.
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I think Bibi only benefited in the short term. Because, that guy is incapable of the missionary position, he squandered whatever benefit he had. He's taking it in the shorts for not getting the hostages back domestically. Internationally, he's making it very hard to support his war efforts.
 
Craig4 said:
I think Bibi only benefited in the short term. Because, that guy is incapable of the missionary position, he squandered whatever benefit he had. He's taking it in the shorts for not getting the hostages back domestically. Internationally, he's making it very hard to support his war efforts.
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It has been remarked by many Bibi biographers/interviewers that short-term is all he does - he is a tactician, not a strategist.

also, something that is never articulated: Bibi did everything he could to piss of Biden, very single opportunity.
To assume that Biden somehow can control him when Netanyahu's entire strategy is to get Republicans in the US into power is extremely naïve.
 
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you think this invasion of Gaza is going to be successful by any measure other than Palestinian body count?
 
The narrative goes like this:

Over the past few decades, Israel had developed an excellent intelligence network. Hamas is a constant threat to Israel, so Mossad would be sure to stay informed of Hamas' activity at all time, using their network of spies and informers. Even though there is a blockade, they will be aware of Hamas smuggling and stockpiling weapons in Gaza, and how many rockets have been assembled out of steel pipe and rusty nails.

Israel knows from experience that they cannot afford to take their eye off the ball. Hamas will take any opportunity to launch an attack against Israel. And yet, in the weeks leading up to October 7, the IDF moved troops away from the border, ignored the reports of women observers stationed near the border, and ignored the warning of a veteran analyst in Israel's intelligence agency.

The most charitable explanation is that they were distracted and lost focus just long enough for Hamas to launch their attack. This explanation does not make sense. Israelis are amongst the smartest people in the world. It is unlikely that they will allow themselves to be bamboozled by a handful of smelly terrorists squatting in dank and dripping tunnels deep under Gaza.

A darker, more CT like explanation is that Israel cynically allowed the attacks to happen, knowing that Israelis would lose their lives. This would give them a pretext for invading Gaza, destroying the infrastructure, flattening the buildings, and soften up the citizens to make them more receptive to the idea of moving away permanently.

************************
​

What would you do if you were Netanyahu? He knows that destroying Hamas is not enough. As long as Palestinians live in Gaza, there would be an endless stream of new terrorists. In order to stop that, he has to prevent Palestinians from living in Gaza. The best way to do that is to make Gaza uninhabitable. A thousand Israelis had to die to enable this plan. He believes it is better to take the hit up front, and never worry about terrorists in Gaza again, than to constantly watch Israelis die every couple of years.
 
theprestige said:
Not so amazing when you remember how comfortable Islamofascists are with slave labor and child armies.

But I suspect that once again you are demanding Israel shoulder the burden of Hamas's moral failures.
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you are all about Blame, I'm about solutions.

And what the IDF is currently doing is killing civilians and their own hostages, more than they rescue.

But you, and the IDF, have decided that there is no upper limit to the Palestinians they get to kill because Hamas did something.

Do you agree with many in the Israeli Government that the best solution is to get rid of all Gazans, by expulsion or killing?
They think that october 7th gives them the right to do that.
Do you?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
you are all about Blame, I'm about solutions.

And what the IDF is currently doing is killing civilians and their own hostages, more than they rescue.

But you, and the IDF, have decided that there is no upper limit to the Palestinians they get to kill because Hamas did something.

Do you agree with many in the Israeli Government that the best solution is to get rid of all Gazans, by expulsion or killing?
They think that october 7th gives them the right to do that.
Do you?
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And if you leave HAMAS in power. this will go on and on and on...............
 
Craig4 said:
I think Bibi only benefited in the short term. Because, that guy is incapable of the missionary position, he squandered whatever benefit he had. He's taking it in the shorts for not getting the hostages back domestically. Internationally, he's making it very hard to support his war efforts.
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The 'Bini Knew about the attacks" theory has about as much evidence to back it up as the "FDR knew about Pearl Harbor" crap.
And I despise Bibi with a passion.
Ironic that the news is that Bibis is in trouble over Israeli Draft laws. The demands that the Haradi (Ultra Orthosxo sect) have thoir exemption from the draft removed have become overwhelming powerful, even among Bibi supporters, but the Ultra Orthodox parties are therenting to pull out of the govenrment, collapsing Bibi majority , if the draft laws are changed. He might be screwed.
 
It's not that Bibi knew about the attacks. It's that he didn't want to know and dismissed warnings from Egypt or anyone else (which in any case likely weren't particularly specific about the details of what Hamas and other factions in Gaza were planning) because he thought he could normalize with Arab dictatorships--efforts encouraged by the US---in a grand alliance against Iran, and just outright ignore the Palestinians, continue the settlement regime in the West Bank, continue the blockade of Gaza, etc., and everything would be just fine, and Israel would remain secure.

Hasn't Netanyahu's pitch to the Israelis been that he is the best bet for keeping them safe in a dangerous region? Haven't the Israeli military and national security/intelligence establishment long projected an image of competence and ruthless effectiveness?

The horrors on October 7th badly undermined all of that. And both those attacks and the brutal, deadlier Israeli response have utterly torched prospects for further normalization with Arab regimes, not least of which is Saudi Arabia. Even dictators have to be responsive to public opinion.

None of this suggests Israeli government foreknowledge or wanting the attacks to happen. But arrogance, hubris, complacency, negligence, and catastrophically short-sighted policy? Absolutely.
 
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Allen773 said:
It's not that Bibi knew about the attacks. It's that he didn't want to know and dismissed warnings from Egypt or anyone else (which in any case likely weren't particularly specific about the details of what Hamas and other factions in Gaza were planning) because he thought he could normalize with Arab dictatorships--efforts encouraged by the US---in a grand alliance against Iran, and just outright ignore the Palestinians, continue the settlement regime in the West Bank, continue the blockade of Gaza, etc., and everything would be just fine, and Israel would remain secure...

None of this suggests Israeli government foreknowledge or wanting the attacks to happen. But arrogance, hubris, complacency, negligence, and catastrophically short-sighted policy? Absolutely.
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This is a realistic assessment IMO.

There are several parallels between this attack and 9/11. In that case Bin Laden and co. were seen as bit players while Iraq was the real threat, with Saddam attempting to produce nuclear weapons. This time Iran (who is also trying to produce nuclear weapons) is the big threat, while Hamas is the bit player whose capacity for inflicting harm was grossly underestimated.

Some people suggested that Bush deliberately allowed 9/11 to happen or even arranged it, because he wanted an excuse to invade Iraq. But we now know it was simply complacency and negligence, arrogance and hubris. Nevertheless the Bush administration did manage to turn it to their advantage and achieve their goal of removing Saddam, just like Israel is doing with Hamas. And just like Iraq, it probably won't turn out quite as well as expected.
 
I would argue that this intelligence failure couldn't have happened under anyone but Netanjahu.
He was so certain that he had given Hamas everything they could want (control of Gaza, money) that he couldn't imagine them doing anything more than shooting rockets. And low level continued violence was perfect for keeping Netanjahu in power, as the apparent threat never stopped.

What happened on Oct 7th was Netanjahu massively underestimating what Hamas could do - and the same holds true for the IDF leadership which was extremely sluggish in mobilizing a response. That this could happen suggest that the IDF has lost sight of its true mission of defending the Israeli border as it is in favor of conquering new territory, as in the West Bank.

At the same time Hamas had massively overestimated the amount of resistance it would encounter.
The situation was something akin to the withdrawal from Afghanistan, were no one was more surprised than the Taliban that they made it all the way to Kabul in one go.

Because the IDF reacted late, it reached badly - there is an ongoing investigation of a IDF tank killing Israeli villagers, and reports of IDF helicopters shooting at Israelis.

My impression is that, internally, everyone in a position of authority in the IDF knows that they could have easily prevented October 7th, but completely dropped the ball.
And following the standard human instincts of locking the barn after the horse as bolted, they are overcompensating by going all out against Gaza, in effect punishing Palestinians for their own failure, because that is easier, psychologically.

i predict a number of "tell all" books to come out of this, and an entire generation of soldiers with PTSD.
 
ahhell said:
IDF is responsible for the Oct 7 Killings

Apparently some folks belief this.
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Which is of course nonsense.

We all know who was really responsible - the 'apostle' Paul. It was he who corrupted Christianity to make it more palatable to the Romans, requiring that the Jews be the bad guys instead. Centuries of the antisemitism he created eventually culminated in Hitler deciding that a final solution to the Jewish problem was required, and forced Jews to emigrate en-masse to Palestine. The inevitable result is what we see today.

Mind you it didn't have to be this bad, and wasn't. I wont bore you with the details - just believe me when I say that going back in time to kill the dictator never works out quite as well as you expect. :o
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Actually, from where I'm standing, you're all about strawmanning your critics, but, be that as it may:
Is there any chance we are going to see any of these solutions, any time soon?
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Unlike some, I don't pretend to have a solution, only a strong sense of what is making things worse and puts a solution further out of reach.
but I have some general ideas.

Clearly, the killing in Gaza must stop, and the Israel needs to give its own voters a chance who they want in leadership after they've seen what the current one has gotten them into.

And then we need some outside observers, quite possibly from a group of countries, to figure out what would be the minimum requirements for Palestinians to govern themselves, and make a road map on how to build the necessary infrastructure, physically, administratively, educationally. The next free elections in the Palestinian territories could then happen in five years or so.

Until then, and possibly beyond, it will take a group of international observers on the group as "tripwires" against violence from either side.

Of course, all of this requires actors to actually want a stable relationship, something that the current Israeli government rejects outright.

The best solution is worthless if the people in power profit more by keeping the problem going.
 
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