IDF is responsible for the Oct 7 Killings

[The Great Zaganza]

Pretty much says it all.

Only if you have poor understanding.
My aspiration is to talk about how to make things better.
Many others are just looking for reasons why that is impossible.



Only the Israeli leadership and their supporters think they have found a solution.
And you keep on defending it (while of course not supporting it)..
I presented a list of ideas, and all you can do is make a lame, uniformed comment.

Why are you so hostile to brainstorming ideas?
Seems to me that we have a lot of the same views about the situation, and yet you are mostly wasting our time attacking me.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Only if you have poor understanding.
My aspiration is to talk about how to make things better.
Many others are just looking for reasons why that is impossible.



Only the Israeli leadership and their supporters think they have found a solution.
And you keep on defending it (while of course not supporting it)..
I presented a list of ideas, and all you can do is make a lame, uniformed comment.

Why are you so hostile to brainstorming ideas?
Seems to me that we have a lot of the same views about the situation, and yet you are mostly wasting our time attacking me.

The moment you respond to my actual posts, and respond in good faith, we can have the meaningful dialogue you say you want.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The moment you respond to my actual posts, and respond in good faith, we can have the meaningful dialogue you say you want.

I think I did by presenting a basic layout when asked by you to present solutions.

I am perfectly willing to reset our interaction, staring with a full acknowledgment that you seem to be highly critical of Netanyahu and the way the conflict is being conducted by Israel.

Let me know if you need more than this from me.

 

[ahhell]

Unlike some, I don't pretend to have a solution, only a strong sense of what is making things worse and puts a solution further out of reach.
but I have some general ideas.

Clearly, the killing in Gaza must stop, and the Israel needs to give its own voters a chance who they want in leadership after they've seen what the current one has gotten them into.

And then we need some outside observers, quite possibly from a group of countries, to figure out what would be the minimum requirements for Palestinians to govern themselves, and make a road map on how to build the necessary infrastructure, physically, administratively, educationally. The next free elections in the Palestinian territories could then happen in five years or so.

Until then, and possibly beyond, it will take a group of international observers on the group as "tripwires" against violence from either side.

Of course, all of this requires actors to actually want a stable relationship, something that the current Israeli government rejects outright.

The best solution is worthless if the people in power profit more by keeping the problem going.

I agree with that I just don't know of anyone that both sides would trust. UNRWA seems to have been deeply compromised. The Israelis wouldn't trust anything from the UN. I don't think either side would trust the Europeans, The Palestinians wouldn't trust the US. And having a bunch of white nominally christian folks would be a bad look regardless.

Indians, Malaysian? Some group of S. American Nations?

Of course, all of this requires actors to actually want a stable relationship, something that the current Israeli government rejects outright.

Is there a group among the Palestinians capable of governing that appears to want a stable a relationship, certainly not Hammas? The PA maybe but most observers think they are hopelessly corrupt and lack popular support.

 

[catsmate]

And if you leave HAMAS in power. this will go on and on and on...............

So, what is the alternative?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Latest interview on Haartez closely mirrors my thoughts.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...leansing/0000018e-0f0f-d203-a9ce-1fbf16dc0000

 

[theprestige]

So, what is the alternative?

Same as with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan: Occupation, martial law, democratic self rule if and when the occupiers deem that the people are ready for it. In this case, it would probably need to be accompanied by a strongly-worded letter from the UN, making it clear that this is as good as it gets, and that Palestinians need to repudiate jihad and embrace peaceful protest if they ever want to see a better tomorrow.

The other other alternative is the same scenario, only it's Hamas doing the occupation and martial law, the Israelis never get democratic self rule, and the UN gives Hamas the same hall pass it gives to every other islamofascist regime from Tripoli to Tehran - but never gives to Israel, for some mysterious reason that is a mysterious mystery for the ages.

I'm kidding. We all know it's because they're Jews.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I think I did by presenting a basic layout when asked by you to present solutions.

I am perfectly willing to reset our interaction, staring with a full acknowledgment that you seem to be highly critical of Netanyahu and the way the conflict is being conducted by Israel.

Let me know if you need more than this from me.

Great- that's all I need. Let us proceed from this point in a hopefully more productive way.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I agree with that I just don't know of anyone that both sides would trust. UNRWA seems to have been deeply compromised. The Israelis wouldn't trust anything from the UN. I don't think either side would trust the Europeans, The Palestinians wouldn't trust the US. And having a bunch of white nominally christian folks would be a bad look regardless.

Indians, Malaysian? Some group of S. American Nations?

With respect, I think you're missing some obvious candidates. My own suggestion (made months ago, and ignored by absolutely everyone!) was to get the Arab states to do this. I foresee no issues with acceptance of this by the Palestinians. Looking at the other side, Egypt and Jordan already have good relations with Israel (OK, soured by the current mess, but not irretrievably so), and Saudi Arabia too. The latter was on the verge of normalising relations with Israel, and would almost certainly welcome the chance to make a grand entrance onto the world stage, by helping to solve this long-running conflict: it would give them massive kudos in the Muslim world and beyond.

Is there a group among the Palestinians capable of governing that appears to want a stable a relationship, certainly not Hammas? The PA maybe but most observers think they are hopelessly corrupt and lack popular support.

This one is a bit more tricky. I agree, that there is currently no Palestinian group untainted by links to militants and by corruption. OTOH, remembering the disaster that was de-Ba'athification, removing the entirety of Palestine's present administration would be problematic. I honestly don't know about this one. Perhaps- just as a suggestion- keep the civil servants etc, but place the territory under the administrative control of the UN, at least until some kind of home-grown administration can be assembled. Also, free and fair elections, as early as practicable, would help. The more say the Palestinians have in their new government, the more likely it is to be stable and accepted by the populace.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I think the PA could run the Palestinian territories if Arab and other States could invest in building up an infrastructure that creates jobs. The biggest problem is unemployment and complete dependency on imports - anything that gives Palestinians the sense that they are building their future would help - as long as Israel is stopped from destroying it again at the first opportunity, as happened so many times in the past.

 

[ahhell]

With respect, I think you're missing some obvious candidates. My own suggestion (made months ago, and ignored by absolutely everyone!) was to get the Arab states to do this. I foresee no issues with acceptance of this by the Palestinians. Looking at the other side, Egypt and Jordan already have good relations with Israel (OK, soured by the current mess, but not irretrievably so), and Saudi Arabia too. The latter was on the verge of normalising relations with Israel, and would almost certainly welcome the chance to make a grand entrance onto the world stage, by helping to solve this long-running conflict: it would give them massive kudos in the Muslim world and beyond.



This one is a bit more tricky. I agree, that there is currently no Palestinian group untainted by links to militants and by corruption. OTOH, remembering the disaster that was de-Ba'athification, removing the entirety of Palestine's present administration would be problematic. I honestly don't know about this one. Perhaps- just as a suggestion- keep the civil servants etc, but place the territory under the administrative control of the UN, at least until some kind of home-grown administration can be assembled. Also, free and fair elections, as early as practicable, would help. The more say the Palestinians have in their new government, the more likely it is to be stable and accepted by the populace.

The problem with the Arab nations doing it, is not the governments it's their people. Not all of them and probably not the majority but enough that Israel wouldn't trust the boots on the ground. I don't think the Arab governments could vet the people they send well enough to reassure Israel that they weren't sending a bunch of folks just like Hamas.

 

[ahhell]

I think the PA could run the Palestinian territories if Arab and other States could invest in building up an infrastructure that creates jobs. The biggest problem is unemployment and complete dependency on imports - anything that gives Palestinians the sense that they are building their future would help - as long as Israel is stopped from destroying it again at the first opportunity, as happened so many times in the past.

The highlighted bit is something Hammas does not want.

There's a lot of truth in that. From Israel's perspective though, Hammas took all the aid they were given and built a bunch of tunnels, rockets, and gliders. There's got to ensure that money goes to civilian infrastructure.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The highlighted bit is something Hammas does not want.

There's a lot of truth in that. From Israel's perspective though, Hammas took all the aid they were given and built a bunch of tunnels, rockets, and gliders. There's got to ensure that money goes to civilian infrastructure.

I agree - somewhat. Hamas made sure that they gave enough to the population to be to main provider. It was also allowed by Israel to receive huge amounts of money from Qatar and others to keep Gaza going.
In contrast, the PA was never given what they needed to run the West Bank at more than the bare minimum, and even that is being taken away by Israeli Settlers.

The success of Hamas is largely the result of decades of anti-PA politics by Israel.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Ask the false flag believers why Hamas invested so much money in tunnels and acquired so many missiles and didn't invest time money or effort building bomb shelters for the citizens or invested in stocking up on food, water and fuel for citizens? How about a plan for hardening the hospitals and so on?

Nope, it was all invested in military readiness.

Now add the West Bank to the picture, the Nakba in its day, and the creeping ethnic cleansing ever since, 24/7, slow and implacable, like a bulldozer at 1 kph. Is it that denying Palestinians a state, and its commensurate rights to national security also a means to then deny them all defense altogether, all whilst this slow agony goes on?

Please cite a credible and workable peace plan that Israel has engaged in in earnest since Bibi came on the scene (when Israel's last peacemaker was assassinated to make way).

So... are we not advocating "bend over and take it like a..."?

 

[ahhell]

I agree - somewhat. Hamas made sure that they gave enough to the population to be to main provider. It was also allowed by Israel to receive huge amounts of money from Qatar and others to keep Gaza going.
In contrast, the PA was never given what they needed to run the West Bank at more than the bare minimum, and even that is being taken away by Israeli Settlers.

The success of Hamas is largely the result of decades of anti-PA politics by Israel.

Yep, there don't seem to be any good actors(at least not at scale) in this situation. I am pretty sure the majority of Israelis and Palestians want to get on with their lives, but they are being held hostage by the extremes on both sides. I tend to think Hammas is the worst actor in this situation but I understand why folks disagree with me on that.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Yep, there don't seem to be any good actors(at least not at scale) in this situation. I am pretty sure the majority of Israelis and Palestians want to get on with their lives, but they are being held hostage by the extremes on both sides. I tend to think Hammas is the worst actor in this situation but I understand why folks disagree with me on that.

I don't think it's necessary to say who is worse - when both sides benefit from keeping the other in power, they are both culpable for everything resulting from this cooperation.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

The problem with the Arab nations doing it, is not the governments it's their people. Not all of them and probably not the majority but enough that Israel wouldn't trust the boots on the ground. I don't think the Arab governments could vet the people they send well enough to reassure Israel that they weren't sending a bunch of folks just like Hamas.

With all due respect, I think you have a false impression of the Arabs- at least, from what I know, and from my personal experience. Contrary to how the western media- particularly the right-wing media- paints the Gulf States, these countries are not peopled entirely by bloodthirsty fanatics. Things have changed a great deal in Saudi Arabia over the last 10 years: it has become much more liberal and more tolerant. The UAE and Oman have always been so, and Kuwait is very tolerant too (a good number of Iranians there, for example).
Moreover, if we are to exclude countries from UN peacekeeping missions because of possible problems with infiltration from antisemitic jihadists, which countries are left? There have been plenty of volunteers for Daesh from European countries, and the US. Looking at the figures- which will inevitably be less than perfectly accurate, but will at least give us an idea- some 3,000 people left Saudi to join ISIS. France? Just under 2,000. Germany? 1,200. Turkey? Could be up to 10,000. In total, some 80 countries have had citizens join ISIS. If we exclude all of them, we would struggle to find enough soldiers.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/...imated 3,244 individuals affiliated with ISIS
https://www.icct.nl/publication/tre...:text=Share:,minors from roughly 80 countries.
So, while I take your point, I don't think this would present a serious obstacle to putting together a UN peacekeeping force. It's worked in Lebanon, for example- I don't recall any attacks by UN staff across the border into Israel. If countries can't effectively screen their armed forces for covert jihadists or other variants of terrorism, then any action, by anyone, is doomed to failure.
From your perspective, which countries would you suggest as being suitable for this task?

 

[ahhell]

With all due respect, I think you have a false impression of the Arabs- at least, from what I know, and from my personal experience. Contrary to how the western media- particularly the right-wing media- paints the Gulf States, these countries are not peopled entirely by bloodthirsty fanatics. Things have changed a great deal in Saudi Arabia over the last 10 years: it has become much more liberal and more tolerant. The UAE and Oman have always been so, and Kuwait is very tolerant too (a good number of Iranians there, for example).
Moreover, if we are to exclude countries from UN peacekeeping missions because of possible problems with infiltration from antisemitic jihadists, which countries are left? There have been plenty of volunteers for Daesh from European countries, and the US. Looking at the figures- which will inevitably be less than perfectly accurate, but will at least give us an idea- some 3,000 people left Saudi to join ISIS. France? Just under 2,000. Germany? 1,200. Turkey? Could be up to 10,000. In total, some 80 countries have had citizens join ISIS. If we exclude all of them, we would struggle to find enough soldiers.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/...imated 3,244 individuals affiliated with ISIS
https://www.icct.nl/publication/tre...:text=Share:,minors from roughly 80 countries.
So, while I take your point, I don't think this would present a serious obstacle to putting together a UN peacekeeping force. It's worked in Lebanon, for example- I don't recall any attacks by UN staff across the border into Israel. If countries can't effectively screen their armed forces for covert jihadists or other variants of terrorism, then any action, by anyone, is doomed to failure.
From your perspective, which countries would you suggest as being suitable for this task?

With all due respect I think you underestimate the anti-Israeli sentiment in the Arab world.

https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/arab-opinion-index-2022-executive-summary/

84% of Arabs don't think their government should recognize Israel. I'm not saying 84% of Arabs want to kill a bunch of Jews but that some substantial percentage are willing to and that percentage is motivated to get chance. Regardless, I think there's good reason why the Israeli's wouldn't be all warm and fuzzy about a bunch of armed Arabs next door.

The answer is, I don't really know who could do it. Suggested maybe some east asian muslims or S. Americans. Some group without a bunch of historical baggage in the area.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

With all due respect I think you underestimate the anti-Israeli sentiment in the Arab world.

https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/arab-opinion-index-2022-executive-summary/

84% of Arabs don't think their government should recognize Israel. I'm not saying 84% of Arabs want to kill a bunch of Jews but that some substantial percentage are willing to and that percentage is motivated to get chance.

Oh, I am well aware of the widespread antipathy towards Israel among Arabs. Don't forget, I live in Saudi Arabia.
However, those opinion polls are based on the current situation. What we are envisaging is an altogether different one. The armies of the Arab states would be deployed there to ensure a peaceful transition to full Palestinian statehood. If members of those armed forces were to attack Israelis while this mission was going on, that would not only reignite the conflict, it would also go against the direct wishes of the Arab governments, and betray the cause of the Palestinians they are there to help. It would seem, I venture, wildly counterproductive for these presumed jihadists to scupper the very process they are fighting for.

Regardless, I think there's good reason why the Israeli's wouldn't be all warm and fuzzy about a bunch of armed Arabs next door.

Err... Have you seen where Israel is? There will always be a bunch of armed Arabs next door.

The answer is, I don't really know who could do it. Suggested maybe some east asian muslims or S. Americans. Some group without a bunch of historical baggage in the area.

If by 'East Asian', you mean Pakistan and Bangladesh, I would think the danger of jihadist infiltration of those armies was equal to, if not more than, the danger for the forces of the Gulf states, Egypt and Jordan.
South America? Possible, though it would be a big ask, a) because getting them to risk their own soldiers in a conflict that, as you say, has very little to do with them, would be quite challenging, and b), because- and I may be being unkind here- I'm really not sure how useful those troops would be. How much relevant actual experience do any of those countries' militaries have? I'm guessing not much.

 

[ahhell]

Oh, I am well aware of the widespread antipathy towards Israel among Arabs. Don't forget, I live in Saudi Arabia.
However, those opinion polls are based on the current situation. What we are envisaging is an altogether different one. The armies of the Arab states would be deployed there to ensure a peaceful transition to full Palestinian statehood. If members of those armed forces were to attack Israelis while this mission was going on, that would not only reignite the conflict, it would also go against the direct wishes of the Arab governments, and betray the cause of the Palestinians they are there to help. It would seem, I venture, wildly counterproductive for these presumed jihadists to scupper the very process they are fighting for.



Err... Have you seen where Israel is? There will always be a bunch of armed Arabs next door.



If by 'East Asian', you mean Pakistan and Bangladesh, I would think the danger of jihadist infiltration of those armies was equal to, if not more than, the danger for the forces of the Gulf states, Egypt and Jordan.
South America? Possible, though it would be a big ask, a) because getting them to risk their own soldiers in a conflict that, as you say, has very little to do with them, would be quite challenging, and b), because- and I may be being unkind here- I'm really not sure how useful those troops would be. How much relevant actual experience do any of those countries' militaries have? I'm guessing not much.

Ok, not next door, inside the backyard and on the porch.

I was thinking maybe further East, Mayasians? Again, I really don't know the answer. How about some Mongols?

 

[catsmate]

I agree with that I just don't know of anyone that both sides would trust. UNRWA seems to have been deeply compromised. The Israelis wouldn't trust anything from the UN. I don't think either side would trust the Europeans, The Palestinians wouldn't trust the US. And having a bunch of white nominally christian folks would be a bad look regardless.

Evidence for this assertion? And not just the unsupported Israeli claims....

 

[dudalb]

So, what is the alternative?

There is none.This will go on and on and on........
Israelis not going to accept HAMAS in a position of power in Gaza. Not after Oct 7th.

 

[dudalb]

Evidence for this assertion? And not just the unsupported Israeli claims....

But unsupported HAMAS claims are fine.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Ok, not next door, inside the backyard and on the porch.

I was thinking maybe further East, Mayasians? Again, I really don't know the answer. How about some Mongols?

One or two nations simply wouldn't be enough. It would need a pretty major coalition to keep the two sides apart, given the depth of mutual hatred they have. Again, I seriously doubt you could persuade Mongolia to shoulder this responsibility. I still maintain it would be better for more local actors to play their part.
Might be nice to finally see some proof that Islam is the religion of peace. Let Muslims maintain the peace, and let them stop the fighting.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

There is none.This will go on and on and on........
Israelis not going to accept HAMAS in a position of power in Gaza. Not after Oct 7th.

And THE LAW does not condone, accept or bless a single Jewish settlement on the West Bank. They are illegal, wrong, and a clear result of Jewish extremist terrorism, even when boiling an egg, as that is done while sitting on a pile of bones. A permanent, ongoing act of terror. And no one, no one here or anywhere, can state the contrary without taking off for La La Land. Because that situation preceded Oct7, I'd say Israel doesn't really have a leg to stand on, especially after greatly lying about what happened on Oct7. Fact is, the ratio of civilian deaths to military was far, far, far less than what Israel has done in response.

Then again, Yanks can't count. We know this because all the millions of displaced, all the many civilian casualties, all the damage done and consequent rise of vicious terrorists in the places where civil society had been destroyed by US action, are nowhere on any Yank radar, tally sheet, or inside a single neuron. Nowhere. Out of sight, out of mind, and, let's be honest, who cares? There are superior White boys and those they play with, and then there is the rest of humanity.,

 

[Axxman300]

Jewish extremist terrorism

At least your bigotry is out in the open. Makes the next part easy.

When Somalis were dying from famine the US lead the UN to bring relief, and set clinics to feed and care for the people. Why didn't any Muslim nations make the effort to initiate aid?

When Muslims were being exterminated (actual genocide, BTW) by Serbians in the Balkans it was the US that lead effort to end the murder. Where were the good Muslims then? What did Al Qaeda do to stop the Serbs, or to punish then since.

Guess I can point out that the Kurdish people have been oppressed by Iran, Iraq, and our ally Turkey for decades. There are over 75,000 fewer Muslim residents of Chechnya these days thanks to Putin. China has over 100,000 Muslim Uyghur people in slave labor/re-education camps at this very moment.

Your selective outrage is painfully obvious. Either everyone counts or nobody counts. You can't just get mad when "Jews" do something that so many others are doing literally at the same time. And Israel didn't lie about the October 7, 2023 massacre.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Somehow, having higher expectations of "the only democracy in the Middle East" than of any of the cleptocratic dictatorships/theocracies is taking as being antisemitic.

 

[dudalb]

At least your bigotry is out in the open. Makes the next part easy.

When Somalis were dying from famine the US lead the UN to bring relief, and set clinics to feed and care for the people. Why didn't any Muslim nations make the effort to initiate aid?

When Muslims were being exterminated (actual genocide, BTW) by Serbians in the Balkans it was the US that lead effort to end the murder. Where were the good Muslims then? What did Al Qaeda do to stop the Serbs, or to punish then since.

Guess I can point out that the Kurdish people have been oppressed by Iran, Iraq, and our ally Turkey for decades. There are over 75,000 fewer Muslim residents of Chechnya these days thanks to Putin. China has over 100,000 Muslim Uyghur people in slave labor/re-education camps at this very moment.

Your selective outrage is painfully obvious. Either everyone counts or nobody counts. You can't just get mad when "Jews" do something that so many others are doing literally at the same time. And Israel didn't lie about the October 7, 2023 massacre.

I think a lot of militant left has gone over the line from legitimate criticism of Israel to out and out Antisemitism.