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Future of the Forum

Darat said:
The JREF will re publish most of the current forum content on the new forum. The new forum will have no rights over that content, the JREF is not transferring its licence.
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Most? What will we be missing?
 
I hereby give the James Randi Foundation permission to do anything they like with any posts I have made on this forum , including erasure and deletion from storage.
 
Darat said:
The JREF will re publish most of the current forum content on the new forum. The new forum will have no rights over that content, the JREF is not transferring its licence.
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I think this is a bit of a dodge to make it seem palatable. If the JREF doesn't own the forum, they are not "publishing" anything. The only way I can think of to make this work is if all the old content is held by JREF on JREF servers and linked to by the new forum.

For example, JREF cannot (under the current terms), send my posts to the New York Times to appear in that paper and claim JREF is "publishing" under their existing license. Copyright cannot be shuffled about quite so cavalierly and the default is toward the author (at least in the US).

Merely calling it publishing instead of transferring won't do. A publisher owns the medium on which the material appears (or pays for the privilege). This is not the case if the forum is moved, and I gather JREF actually does want to disassociate from the forum.

Again, I don't think this is going to be an issue unless someone wants to press it, but there's no point in fooling ourselves about the situation.
 
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Darat said:
It's not finalised yet but probably the historic MDC section will not be republished and there might be a few other odds and sods.
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That seems like an interesting issue by itself. I am not asking for any information that is not designed to be public here, but what is the thinking of JREF here? Do they see value in those discussions as related to their objectives? Do they see legal problems with some of those discussions? They probably are the discussions most directly related to JREF. Maybe they envision a forum restricted to that kind of thread? Is it their intention to take them down and not publish them at all.

MDC = million dollar challenge
I didn't figure it out right away and if anybody was similarly challenged I posted it here.


A completely different topic:
Has their been any discussion of a name for the new forum? I would like to have Randi in the title with a disclaimer placed nearby that the new forum is not affiliated with Randi or JREF. How about "The Randi Society"? "The Randi Forum"? Groups occasionally take the name of famous people with the goal of honoring the individual without indicating an affiliation.

Regardless of the legalities, I think Randi's wishes on this should be paramount. If he doesn't want his name used, we shouldn't.
 
marplots said:
I think this is a bit of a dodge to make it seem palatable. If the JREF doesn't own the forum, they are not "publishing" anything. The only way I can think of to make this work is if all the old content is held by JREF on JREF servers and linked to by the new forum.
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Why do you think the JREF has to own the servers where the posts are published?
 
Soapy Sam said:
I hereby give the James Randi Foundation permission to do anything they like with any posts I have made on this forum , including erasure and deletion from storage.
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I hereby give permission for anyone to republish my content except where it contains the words 'flaggon' 'Belgium' 'twaddle' or 'coop'

These words will be invoiced at $1,000,000 per appearance. You have been warned.
 
marplots said:
I think this is a bit of a dodge to make it seem palatable. If the JREF doesn't own the forum, they are not "publishing" anything. The only way I can think of to make this work is if all the old content is held by JREF on JREF servers and linked to by the new forum.

For example, JREF cannot (under the current terms), send my posts to the New York Times to appear in that paper and claim JREF is "publishing" under their existing license. Copyright cannot be shuffled about quite so cavalierly and the default is toward the author (at least in the US).

Merely calling it publishing instead of transferring won't do. A publisher owns the medium on which the material appears (or pays for the privilege). This is not the case if the forum is moved, and I gather JREF actually does want to disassociate from the forum.

Again, I don't think this is going to be an issue unless someone wants to press it, but there's no point in fooling ourselves about the situation.
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You are incorrect, if you want an analogy: The JREF is going to produce and release a hard cover book of the best of the forum (granted a very short book...), the publisher of that book is not the JREF, so the JREF is "republishing" the content it has a licence to use as it wants. The content is not being licensed to the book publisher.

That is all that is happening in this instance, it's just the technology is a server and web software rather than a printing press and paper.
 
davefoc said:
That seems like an interesting issue by itself. I am not asking for any information that is not designed to be public here, but what is the thinking of JREF here? Do they see value in those discussions as related to their objectives? Do they see legal problems with some of those discussions? They probably are the discussions most directly related to JREF. Maybe they envision a forum restricted to that kind of thread? Is it their intention to take them down and not publish them at all.

MDC = million dollar challenge
I didn't figure it out right away and if anybody was similarly challenged I posted it here.
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You would need to contact the JREF for any answers and comments.
davefoc said:
A completely different topic:
Has their been any discussion of a name for the new forum? I would like to have Randi in the title with a disclaimer placed nearby that the new forum is not affiliated with Randi or JREF. How about "The Randi Society"? "The Randi Forum"? Groups occasionally take the name of famous people with the goal of honoring the individual without indicating an affiliation.

Regardless of the legalities, I think Randi's wishes on this should be paramount. If he doesn't want his name used, we shouldn't.
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The name has already been decided by popular vote.

ETA: This is the thread you've missed davefoc: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281306
 
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Darat said:
You are incorrect, if you want an analogy: The JREF is going to produce and release a hard cover book of the best of the forum (granted a very short book...), the publisher of that book is not the JREF, so the JREF is "republishing" the content it has a licence to use as it wants. The content is not being licensed to the book publisher.

That is all that is happening in this instance, it's just the technology is a server and web software rather than a printing press and paper.
Click to expand...

Analogies won't really do it - this is a well explored area of copyright law. We should ask a copyright lawyer (after letting them read the current MA).

But, to go with your analogy, JREF is not republishing. They are giving permission to republish on another forum. The term "republish" refers to a repetitive act (like a second edition), not a new endeavor. This is the part I am disputing. JREF can republish, but they cannot hand over rights to a third party, since JREF does not hold the copyright themselves.

In other words, my relationship is with JREF, not this new forum. If the new forum is a separate entity - as I think it must be to meet JREF expectations - I, as the copyright holder, have no relationship and have given no permissions to that separate entity.

The defect comes in the MA itself, because there it is missing the usual language about transfer of rights to "heirs and assignees." The purpose of this (usually included) language is to address sales and transfers - exactly what we want to do.

Here is the typical language (used for the New York Times for forum and comments- highlights mine) http://www.nytimes.com/content/help/rights/terms/terms-of-service.html#discussions (item 3.4):
3.4 You grant NYT a perpetual, nonexclusive, world-wide, royalty free, sub-licensable license to the Submissions, which includes without limitation the right for NYT or any third party it designates, to use, copy, transmit, excerpt, publish, distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, create derivative works of, host, index, cache, tag, encode, modify and adapt (including without limitation the right to adapt to streaming, downloading, broadcast, mobile, digital, thumbnail, scanning or other technologies) in any form or media now known or hereinafter developed, any Submission posted by you on or to the Services or any other Web site owned by NYT, including any Submission posted on or to the Services through a third party.
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Instead, what we want to do really sounds like a kind of "having our cake and eating it too." JREF wants to be separated from the forum for (I assume) liability and other reasons. Fine, they wash their hands of us. But then, JREF is going to be named as publishing (or republishing, doesn't matter) the new forum so we can pretend to have copyright permission.
 
Pixel42 said:
Thank you.
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You're welcome. :) Seemingly important info like this has been somewhat hard to find unless you've been following all the related discussions closely, which obviously not everyone has been able to do, given how fast things have been moving.
 
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I am shocked that the MDC forum with the historic threads are going to be lost. That brief period when the MDC negotiations were publicised was our only way of knowing how it was handled, and it represented a highlight for me. In fact, I deplore that the JREF discontinued the practice. In those days I would lead other people to read the negotiations about claims similar to what they believed in themselves so that they could see that the JREF acted fairly and did not impose unreasonable terms for the tests.

When woos hear about the MDC they often claim that the tests are designed to make the paranormal effect disappear, and the MDC forum was our only source to prove otherwise. It also showed how difficult it is to get applicants to produce testable claims.
 
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marplots said:
Analogies won't really do it - this is a well explored area of copyright law. We should ask a copyright lawyer (after letting them read the current MA).

But, to go with your analogy, JREF is not republishing. They are giving permission to republish on another forum. The term "republish" refers to a repetitive act (like a second edition), not a new endeavor. This is the part I am disputing. JREF can republish, but they cannot hand over rights to a third party, since JREF does not hold the copyright themselves.

In other words, my relationship is with JREF, not this new forum. If the new forum is a separate entity - as I think it must be to meet JREF expectations - I, as the copyright holder, have no relationship and have given no permissions to that separate entity.

The defect comes in the MA itself, because there it is missing the usual language about transfer of rights to "heirs and assignees." The purpose of this (usually included) language is to address sales and transfers - exactly what we want to do.

Here is the typical language (used for the New York Times for forum and comments- highlights mine) http://www.nytimes.com/content/help/rights/terms/terms-of-service.html#discussions (item 3.4):


Instead, what we want to do really sounds like a kind of "having our cake and eating it too." JREF wants to be separated from the forum for (I assume) liability and other reasons. Fine, they wash their hands of us. But then, JREF is going to be named as publishing (or republishing, doesn't matter) the new forum so we can pretend to have copyright permission.
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You are still incorrect and not understanding what is going to happen. The licence the JREF has allows it to do what it wants with the posts folk have made here, the JREF is not trying to nor wants to transfer that licence. The JREF is going to publish the content it has a licence to in a slightly different format than it has now. There is no change of rights nor ownership either for the JREF or the members or the new entity which will own the new forum. The new forum for example would not be able to publish a book using the content members provided from when the JREF owned the forum as it will have no right or rather no licence to do that.

The section in the RA clarifying the copyright situation was created to cover this sort of unforseen circumstance, usually on high profile sites you by posting assign the copyright to the owner of that site. At the time I didn't want that to be the case here, in case it put off folk posting quality/informative/useful posts.
 
Darat said:
It's not finalised yet but probably the historic MDC section will not be republished and there might be a few other odds and sods.
Click to expand...

steenkh said:
I am shocked that the MDC forum with the historic threads are going to be lost. That brief period when the MDC negotiations were publicised was our only way of knowing how it was handled, and it represented a highlight for me. In fact, I deplore that the JREF discontinued the practice. In those days I would lead other people to read the negotiations about claims similar to what they believed in themselves so that they could see that the JREF acted fairly and did not impose unreasonable terms for the tests.

When woos hear about the MDC they often claim that the tests are designed to make the paranormal effect disappear, and the MDC forum was our only source to prove otherwise. It also showed how difficult it is to get applicants to produce testable claims.
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I agree with steenkh.
The the MDC forum with the historic threads contain some of the most valuable information in the JREF.
 
pakeha said:
I agree with steenkh.
The the MDC forum with the historic threads contain some of the most valuable information in the JREF.
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& What about AAH ?
Some posters best work (including myself possibly) could be lost for all time and that would be on a par with the destruction of the Library of Alexandria.
 
Darat said:
You are incorrect, if you want an analogy: The JREF is going to produce and release a hard cover book of the best of the forum (granted a very short book...), the publisher of that book is not the JREF, so the JREF is "republishing" the content it has a licence to use as it wants. The content is not being licensed to the book publisher.

That is all that is happening in this instance, it's just the technology is a server and web software rather than a printing press and paper.
Click to expand...

The initial licence agreement to republish forever was meant to only allow post go through web server and being copied into "memory" without having too much hassle with copyright by covering it up with an EULA as a work around.

That some try to repurpose that to a licence to publish and use as their want or whim, commercial or not, is not to their credit. On the contrary.
 
Darat said:
The section in the RA clarifying the copyright situation was created to cover this sort of unforseen circumstance, usually on high profile sites you by posting assign the copyright to the owner of that site. At the time I didn't want that to be the case here, in case it put off folk posting quality/informative/useful posts.
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EULA or MA or in some juridiction not a contract and not enough to transfert *copyright*. Historically what was in MA or EULA was that you allowed a *licence* to republish forever (for the reason explained above). Not a copyright transfert.

I doubt this is even possible to transfert copyright that way thru a simple member agreement under EU laws.

No matter what I post ehre, I am still the holder of the copyright, and I may copy, relicence, sell and do whatever I want with it.
 
In fact what I mentionned above is reflected from the ra:

"Any post or article published on the JREF forum by a Member is the copyright of the Member and may not be reproduced, copied or otherwise re-published without the express permission of the Member. By posting on the Forum a Member grants the JREF a non-exclusive licence to publish, republish or reproduce their work, in its entirety or as the JREF sees fit, in perpetuity. The James Randi Educational Foundation is the copyright holder of the JREF Forum. "

The bold confirm that it is a licencing as I was saiyng, not a copyright attribution, this is legally not the same things.

I note that JREF reserve the right to republish in perpetutity, but that does not mean they are copyright holder.
 
Aepervius said:
The initial licence agreement to republish forever was meant to only allow post go through web server and being copied into "memory" without having too much hassle with copyright by covering it up with an EULA as a work around.
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You know this how?
That some try to repurpose that to a licence to publish and use as their want or whim, commercial or not, is not to their credit. On the contrary.
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I suggest you read Darat's most recent post; you're talking to the person who put the agreement in place, so I suspect he knows why it was put there and what it means.
 
Aepervius said:
The initial licence agreement to republish forever was meant to only allow post go through web server and being copied into "memory" without having too much hassle with copyright by covering it up with an EULA as a work around.

That some try to repurpose that to a licence to publish and use as their want or whim, commercial or not, is not to their credit. On the contrary.
Click to expand...

You are simply incorrect that licence statement was expressively created to allow the JREF to use any content from the Forum. At the time it was hoped that the JREF would use the better posts as a basis for handout leaflets. Indeed one such leaflet was created about homeopathy that consisted of an explanation of homeopathy with a FAQ section that was answered with (slightly) edited content taken direct from members' posts.
 
Aepervius said:
EULA or MA or in some juridiction not a contract and not enough to transfert *copyright*. Historically what was in MA or EULA was that you allowed a *licence* to republish forever (for the reason explained above). Not a copyright transfert.

I doubt this is even possible to transfert copyright that way thru a simple member agreement under EU laws.

No matter what I post ehre, I am still the holder of the copyright, and I may copy, relicence, sell and do whatever I want with it.
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And again you seem be misunderstanding, there is no copyright being transferred, the copyright of all posts remains with the member no matter how the JREF uses its licence. You seem to be having an argument with yourself!
 
At the new forum location I will no longer be able to lord my veteran user status over newer users. A most regrettable turn of events.
 
New forum? I have no idea what is going on having read pages 1 and 49.
Is the JREF forum leaving the JREF? I'll go with whatever Darat says but it's going to be a long night of reading unless someone can post a summary of recent events!

CJ x
 
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/jref-news/2384-regarding-the-jref-forum-status.html

The forum is going off on its own. In the short term the forum is moving to a new server setup by icecat with the help of a few others while still under the JREF's umbrella.

Then at some point in the near future (like six months or less) the forum will transition out from the JREF to become the International Skeptics Forum (or Skeptic's or some variation of c's and k's and apostrophes).
 
cj.23 said:
New forum? I have no idea what is going on having read pages 1 and 49.
Is the JREF forum leaving the JREF? I'll go with whatever Darat says but it's going to be a long night of reading unless someone can post a summary of recent events!

CJ x
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From another source on here apparently the JREF as such has dissolved or is in the process of same.
 
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