Baby rapist put on probation

[Ryokan]

@Ryokan.

I was merely stating the truth about an ex-con's chances on the outside world, regardless of prison conditions. And tell me your solutions for that conundrum short of forcing it down society's throats (especially when the Bulger murder is in living memory in the UK's case) and dragging employers kicking and screaming towards hiring ex-cons.

Do it like we do in Norway: Once you've served your sentence, you're done your punishment. You should be allowed to integrate yourself into society and become a productive member again. You don't need to inform your employers of your status as an ex-convict, nor should there be any public record of who has spent time in jail. It should only be relevant if your previous conviction makes you unsuitable for the job.

For example, I work with children. Before starting that job, I had to go to the police to get a statement from them saying I have no convictions that would make me unsuitable for working with children - for example sexual assaults on children, violent drug crimes, etc. If I had served time for robbing a bank, it would not be on that statement and my employer would never know.

Now, I can just imagine you spitting out your coffee in outrage over being so 'soft on crime', but really.... what is the alternative? If ex-convicts can't get jobs, provide for themselves and feel like that are part of society, exactly what is to stop them from going back to a life of crime? What other alternatives do they have?

The question really is what kind of society you want to live in.

ETA: I have no idea what a Bulger is, and in any case I don't think we should change our criminal justice system because of one incident.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

@The_Don

In the age of Google, Convictions are NEVER "spent". Nightclubs are already using facial recognition software and pooling data on drunkards/PNGs, and I can see their use expanding to background checks.

I doubt it's a common occurrence for employers to actively recruit ex-offenders (the organisations you mentioned are vanishingly rare and probably set up by the government). On the contrary, they would be more likely to set up blacklists so if an ex-con comes in to apply, they get rejected and are PNG'd from other workplaces. In this climate, who do you think has a better chance: an ex-con or a pool of graduates.

By your logic, detention in schools isn't a deterrent to delinquent behaviour.

 

[Ryokan]

@The_Don

In the age of Google, Convictions are NEVER "spent". Nightclubs are already using facial recognition software and pooling data on drunkards/PNGs, and I can see their use expanding to background checks.

I doubt it's a common occurrence for employers to actively recruit ex-offenders (the organisations you mentioned are vanishingly rare and probably set up by the government). On the contrary, they would be more likely to set up blacklists so if an ex-con comes in to apply, they get rejected and are PNG'd from other workplaces. In this climate, who do you think has a better chance: an ex-con or a pool of graduates.

By your logic, detention in schools isn't a deterrent to delinquent behaviour.

I'm actually not sure what your point is. Is it that ex-convicts are screwed when they get out of prison anyway, so we might as well break them mentally too?

 

[NWO Sentryman]

I'm actually not sure what your point is. Is it that ex-convicts are screwed when they get out of prison anyway, so we might as well break them mentally too?

WRT Suicide Watch/Solitary as basic prison conditions, I thought that making prison so terrifying (but not "get a shiv jammed down your eye in your sleep") would make ex-cons think twice before reoffending. As for the point about ex-cons finding it impossible to reintegrate, I was stating a "fact on the ground" and didn't see any good solutions.

And my point about facial recognition software/google is that "spent convictions" don't matter anymore when everything is being posted online.

 

[ddt]

Do it like we do in Norway: Once you've served your sentence, you're done your punishment. You should be allowed to integrate yourself into society and become a productive member again. You don't need to inform your employers of your status as an ex-convict, nor should there be any public record of who has spent time in jail. It should only be relevant if your previous conviction makes you unsuitable for the job.

I see one practical problem with that. In May, Volkert van der Graaf will come free, the murderer of Pim Fortuyn. How does he explain the period 2002-2014 on his resume? Long vacation? (apart from the fact that in his particular case, everybody is triggered immediately by the name).

For example, I work with children. Before starting that job, I had to go to the police to get a statement from them saying I have convictions that would make me unsuitable for working with children - for example sexual assaults on children, violent drug crimes, etc. If I had served time for robbing a bank, it would not be on that statement and my employer would never know.

And conversely, if you had robbed a bank, it would show up if you applied for a job as, say, accountant. Yep, I fully agree with that approach (and we have similar system in Holland).

 

[The Don]

@The_Don

In the age of Google, Convictions are NEVER "spent". Nightclubs are already using facial recognition software and pooling data on drunkards/PNGs, and I can see their use expanding to background checks.

Only if it's legal to do so and people bother to do it.

I doubt it's a common occurrence for employers to actively recruit ex-offenders (the organisations you mentioned are vanishingly rare and probably set up by the government). On the contrary, they would be more likely to set up blacklists so if an ex-con comes in to apply, they get rejected and are PNG'd from other workplaces. In this climate, who do you think has a better chance: an ex-con or a pool of graduates.

It depends. If I'm recruiting a vehicle upholsterer and the person comes highly recommended, has years of experience prior to incarceration and was able to enhance their skills while inside then I'll definitely take that over an unknown graduate. This exactly describes the recruitment process applied by the upholsterer I took my Jag to three years ago and also seems to describe the process that my local garage and the landscapers used to recruit a couple of their employees.

Of course ex-offenders are much more likely to have few or no qualifications and mental health problems which affect their employability but locking them in a box and denying them training is unlikely to address either of these problems.

By your logic, detention in schools isn't a deterrent to delinquent behaviour.

Given that the number repeat offenders in the detention group at my school I would say that detention was neither an effective deterrent nor an effective punishment.

 

[Ryokan]

WRT Suicide Watch/Solitary as basic prison conditions, I thought that making prison so terrifying (but not "get a shiv jammed down your eye in your sleep") would make ex-cons think twice before reoffending. As for the point about ex-cons finding it impossible to reintegrate, I was stating a "fact on the ground" and didn't see any good solutions.

And my point about facial recognition software/google is that "spent convictions" don't matter anymore when everything is being posted online.

I don't think you've thought this through. You don't have to spend many days in solitary confinement before your mental health starts to suffer. After having spent years like that, and with no prospect of a job once you're put on the streets, exactly what is that person's alternative to crime? Exactly how is this system of yours supposed to reduce crime? Deterrents don't work if you have no other options.

And I'm sure you would agree, even with the problems you see as inevitable, that it would be a lot easier for an ex-convict to get a job if he isn't mentally ill as well.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Oh god the thread title just keeps me in a pissed off mood, if anyone is wondering about my posting. That said:

@The_Don

Given that nightclubs don't need patrons' consent to use FRS/CCTV, I'm sure businesses will use it as well for background checks.

I doubt ex-cons would be "enhancing their skills" apart from learning ways to pickpocket or open locks. Anyway, the ex-con will be facing dozens of contenders in getting a particular job, and the sort of employer willing to take them on are few and far between.

 

[Ryokan]

I see one practical problem with that. In May, Volkert van der Graaf will come free, the murderer of Pim Fortuyn. How does he explain the period 2002-2014 on his resume? Long vacation? (apart from the fact that in his particular case, everybody is triggered immediately by the name).

Yes, high profile cases are of course a problem - but not one solved by going in the opposite direction again. Quite the contrary.

But again I would say that we can't change our system because of individual incidents.

 

[The Don]

Oh god the thread title just keeps me in a pissed off mood, if anyone is wondering about my posting. That said:

@The_Don

Given that nightclubs don't need patrons' consent to use FRS/CCTV, I'm sure businesses will use it as well for background checks.

Are you ? Even if it is illegal for them to do so ?

I doubt ex-cons would be "enhancing their skills" apart from learning ways to pickpocket or open locks. Anyway, the ex-con will be facing dozens of contenders in getting a particular job, and the sort of employer willing to take them on are few and far between.

You're unaware of the educational opportunities in prison ?

One very high profile example of someone who got an education inside:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McVicar

 

[Professor Yaffle]

For example, I work with children. Before starting that job, I had to go to the police to get a statement from them saying I have convictions that would make me unsuitable for working with children - for example sexual assaults on children, violent drug crimes, etc.

I'm glad my kids aren't in Norway then...

 

[angrysoba]

What's even worse is the "soft on crime" lot cheering on the judge.

There you go, you lot! Worse than paedophiles! Hang your heads in shame.

 

[Ryokan]

I'm glad my kids aren't in Norway then...

That was the worst typing mistake I could've done there.. Can't believe no one else caught it...

Fixed...

 

[angrysoba]

For example, I work with children. Before starting that job, I had to go to the police to get a statement from them saying I have no convictions that would make me unsuitable for working with children - for example sexual assaults on children, violent drug crimes, etc. If I had served time for robbing a bank, it would not be on that statement and my employer would never know.

I expect there is a "not" missing from the first sentence somewhere.

子供に考えてよ！

ETA: Ninja'd!

Now, I can just imagine you spitting out your coffee in outrage over being so 'soft on crime', but really.... what is the alternative? If ex-convicts can't get jobs, provide for themselves and feel like that are part of society, exactly what is to stop them from going back to a life of crime? What other alternatives do they have?

The question really is what kind of society you want to live in.

ETA: I have no idea what a Bulger is, and in any case I don't think we should change our criminal justice system because of one incident.

NWO in his usual way, is referring to one of his obsessions, which in this case is the murder of a child called James Bulger, by two ten-year old chidren.

In some ways the response to the crime perfectly encapsulates the way in which many people feel vindicated in reacting to horror by demanding more of the same. Almost like no other crime since the sixties, people were demanding all kinds of punishment and condemnations, perhaps because the culprits were only ten.

Really amazing that fully-grown adults could say in public that they wanted two children to be put to death and not be shouted down but applauded.

Strangely enough, NWO Sentryman is too young to remember this.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

I expect there is a "not" missing from the first sentence somewhere.

子供に考えてよ！

ETA: Ninja'd!



NWO in his usual way, is referring to one of his obsessions, which in this case is the murder of a child called James Bulger, by two ten-year old chidren.

In some ways the response to the crime perfectly encapsulates the way in which many people feel vindicated in reacting to horror by demanding more of the same. Almost like no other crime since the sixties, people were demanding all kinds of punishment and condemnations, perhaps because the culprits were only ten.

Really amazing that fully-grown adults could say in public that they wanted two children to be put to death and not be shouted down but applauded.

Strangely enough, NWO Sentryman is too young to remember this.

To explain, I was citing it along with Hungerford and Dunblane as to reasons why the UK has a hardline opinion on crime compared to other countries in Europe. That and the press emphasising those sort of crimes

 

[angrysoba]

To explain, I was citing it along with Hungerford and Dunblane as to reasons why the UK has a hardline opinion on crime compared to other countries in Europe. That and the press emphasising those sort of crimes

Hungerford and Dunblane certainly explain why the UK has a hardline on guns, but how on Earth does it make any rational sense that the two massacres would result in being "tough on crime" given that both perpetrators killed themselves at the scene of the crime and didn't have criminal records?

 

[Dr. Keith]

Hungerford and Dunblane certainly explain why the UK has a hardline on guns, but how on Earth does it make any rational sense that the two massacres would result in being "tough on crime" given that both perpetrators killed themselves at the scene of the crime and didn't have criminal records?

If you were really tough on crime they would have had criminal records . . . or something.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Come on everyone knows rape is funny and ok when the rappie has it coming.

That that our Daily Rape Culture Trope brought to you by the letter "W" and the number "0".

 

[The Norseman]

It's a different form of "hellish" as in not so much due to inmates shivving each other so much as being a prison run on military lines, with the discipline being draconian well beyond most other prisons. Anyway, the recidivism rate in Glasshouse in the UK is far lower than that of Bastoy.

Alright. I don't know anything about the histories you are talking about so I'll take your word that it is the case.

 

[The Norseman]

Yeah, I don't even think most people who support the death penalty even think of it as a deterrent but mostly a case of retribution.

Here's a story about one of the periodic attempts to "bring back hanging".

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-14402195

Interesting article. I noticed that this fellow seems to be studiously ignoring the Human Rights Act which would apparently prevent Parliament from re-enacting the death penalty.

Unless I'm misreading it, of course.