Baby rapist put on probation

[The Norseman]

What's even worse is the "soft on crime" lot cheering on the judge.

@Ryokan.

I was merely stating the truth about an ex-con's chances on the outside world, regardless of prison conditions. And tell me your solutions for that conundrum short of forcing it down society's throats (especially when the Bulger murder is in living memory in the UK's case) and dragging employers kicking and screaming towards hiring ex-cons.

Well, as I understand Ryokan's point is that Norwegian society is rather accepting of the facts of ex-cons and there is no dragging employers kicking and screaming nor forcing it down society's throats.

@The_Don

We both know that an ex-con has relatively little life chances once they get out anyway, especially when employers will just shred their application forms. What I am saying is that the "clean hell" is meant to be something so dreaded that ex-cons will rather suffer the slings and arrows of fortune in society than reoffend.

If it worked, the US would have one of the lowest crime rates in the developed nations.

It does not, though.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Alright. I don't know anything about the histories you are talking about so I'll take your word that it is the case.

I wouldn't...

This analysis of the 1995 proposal by Great Britain's Home Office to place civilian young offenders in the Military Corrective Training Center (MCTC) in Colchester, England concludes that a shock incarceration program is inappropriate for these offenders and is unlikely to reduce recidivism.

Abstract: A 1994 evaluation of shock incarceration programs in eight States in the United States revealed that boot camps did not reduce recidivism in comparison with similar offenders handled in other ways and that the State with the most militaristic regime had the highest recidivism rates. The research concluded that the military atmosphere did not appear to reduce recidivism. In Great Britain, the cost of planning, setting up, and operating a unit for civilian young offenders within the MCTC will be substantial. Such an action is a misuse of resources, particularly at a time when reductions in the unit costs of correctional establishments are leading to cuts in prison education and in programs to reduce recidivism. The best approach to prevent further crime among youthful offenders is to provide quality education, training, alcohol and drug treatment, and highly focused efforts to change attitudes toward crime. Wherever possible, these programs should be provided as part of community supervision programs. When custodial sentences are imposed on young offenders, these elements should form a central part of the program of juvenile correctional institutions. This approach is far more likely to reduce recidivism than are military routines and drills.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=160664

Military convicts are a completely different population to general offenders, so it doesn't make sense to directly compare recidivism rates (I have no idea what they are like for military establishments btw). It is unlikely that offenders from different backgrounds would respond in the same way as forces personnel do to military style discipline.

 

[The Norseman]

I wouldn't...

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=160664

Military convicts are a completely different population to general offenders, so it doesn't make sense to directly compare recidivism rates (I have no idea what they are like for military establishments btw). It is unlikely that offenders from different backgrounds would respond in the same way as forces personnel do to military style discipline.

Thanks Prof for putting the 'E' in JREF once again!

 

[fuelair]

On the off chance I am being misinterpreted (not that I generally concern myself with that), I trust we have all noted that nowhere have I applied my attitudes to petty or bigger thieves, shoplifters, grifters, pickpockets, drug dealers who do not murder anyone/ harm anyone(beyond selling them the drugs), producers of pornography (except the obvious or real violence items) prostitutes... I do apply it for rapists, active pedophiles, most murderers, torturers, assault with more than very minor physical damage, kidnappers, terrorists and those who assist any of these. Hopefully this helps. At basic, I am fine with the Norway, etc. system ON NON-VIOLENT CRIMINALS. And I am happily supportive of my preferences on violent criminals. I want them out of my world and I want them to leave it knowing without question that they had done wrong and been helped to repent.

 

[yodaluver28]

Have you missed what I actually advocated? That the guy be locked up for life. Just not in the big house, but in the loony bin. Yes, pedophilia is a psychiatric condition: he has an innate urge to sexually assault children. That is quite unlike, say, a burglar, who has no innate urge to burgle.

There were massive psychiatric facility shutdowns here in the US in the '80s and '90s and the beds that still exist are needed by the delusional schizophrenic and severe bipolar patients, those that psychiatry can have a positive effect on. Psychiatric treatment has minimal effect on pedophiles. It would be cruel and counterproductive to waste psychiatric beds on people who can't be significantly helped.

Pedophilia is a psychiatric condition. Raping babies is a choice. I thought justice meant we punish people for wrong choices.

Precisely. The urge is involuntary, the choice to act it out on a helpless child is just that, a choice.

What's to keep someone from getting forced treatment while in prison?

Medication and/or therapy can usually be a mandated part of a prison sentence if a court appointed psychiatrist recommends it and the judge agrees.

I agree. But we can try to choose an appropriate punishment. Curing the underlying psychiatric condition means no urges anymore to rape babies.

The only thing that has shown any significant effect in controlling pedophilic urges is castration, either surgical or chemical. There is significant reluctance in many states to use it on sex offenders for a myriad of reasons: lawsuits from the ACLU alleging that it's cruel and unusual punishment, possible lawsuits for negative side effects, concerns over informed consent and possible permanent physical damage, and the high cost of the drugs and monitoring. While surgical castration is far more effective as an isolated permanent treatment, it's obviously out of the question. Only chemical castration could ever be widely accepted and it's less effective, especially if the offender isn't receiving other forms of treatment at the same time. In light of all of this, for many states, prison for pedophilic rapists is a more effective way to keep their children safe.

Is prison an appropriate environment for that? Specialized psychiatric institutions would be more suited.

You're assuming that pedophiles can be cured psychiatrically. There is no evidence for this. At best, psychiatric medication and therapy in conjunction with chemical castration can reduce recidivism significantly but conventional psychiatric treatment in the absence of drugs to tame the libido are only marginally helpful. If castration is off the table, as it is in many states, keeping them in prison and away from children is the only viable option.

Minor point of pedantry, but having a psychiatric condition does not make one insane in legal terms.

Very true. In general, you're only legally insane if you are so delusional that you have no understanding of right and wrong and no appreciation for the consequences of your actions.

What is "fourth degree rape" anyway? A type of violation that doesn't include penetration?

In Delaware fourth degree class C felony rape is basically the statutory rape law. It's meant to be used on adults who have penetrative sex with post-pubescent teenagers who are below the age of consent. It was never meant to be used on pedophiles who rape someone under the age of 12, they are supposed to be charged with first degree class A felony rape. The fourth degree charge was the result of a guilty-plea deal with the prosecutor. Despite this, the statute does allow the judge to issue a maximum 15 year prison term for egregious cases and the judge completely ignored that.

 

[The Norseman]

There were massive psychiatric facility shutdowns here in the US in the '80s and '90s and the beds that still exist are needed by the delusional schizophrenic and severe bipolar patients, those that psychiatry can have a positive effect on. Psychiatric treatment has minimal effect on pedophiles. It would be cruel and counterproductive to waste psychiatric beds on people who can't be significantly helped.


Precisely. The urge is involuntary, the choice to act it out on a helpless child is just that, a choice.


Medication and/or therapy can usually be a mandated part of a prison sentence if a court appointed psychiatrist recommends it and the judge agrees.


The only thing that has shown any significant effect in controlling pedophilic urges is castration, either surgical or chemical. There is significant reluctance in many states to use it on sex offenders for a myriad of reasons: lawsuits from the ACLU alleging that it's cruel and unusual punishment, possible lawsuits for negative side effects, concerns over informed consent and possible permanent physical damage, and the high cost of the drugs and monitoring. While surgical castration is far more effective as an isolated permanent treatment, it's obviously out of the question. Only chemical castration could ever be widely accepted and it's less effective, especially if the offender isn't receiving other forms of treatment at the same time. In light of all of this, for many states, prison for pedophilic rapists is a more effective way to keep their children safe.

You're assuming that pedophiles can be cured psychiatrically. There is no evidence for this. At best, psychiatric medication and therapy in conjunction with chemical castration can reduce recidivism significantly but conventional psychiatric treatment in the absence of drugs to tame the libido are only marginally helpful. If castration is off the table, as it is in many states, keeping them in prison and away from children is the only viable option.


Very true. In general, you're only legally insane if you are so delusional that you have no understanding of right and wrong and no appreciation for the consequences of your actions.



In Delaware fourth degree class C felony rape is basically the statutory rape law. It's meant to be used on adults who have penetrative sex with post-pubescent teenagers who are below the age of consent. It was never meant to be used on pedophiles who rape someone under the age of 12, they are supposed to be charged with first degree class A felony rape. The fourth degree charge was the result of a guilty-plea deal with the prosecutor. Despite this, the statute does allow the judge to issue a maximum 15 year prison term for egregious cases and the judge completely ignored that.

You're talking then about the only choice available is life in prison. For someone who cannot control those urges, we would treat worse than outright murderers. If I had my druthers, I'd say both prison and treatment with the idea that they will leave prison sooner or later.

 

[ddt]

Yes, high profile cases are of course a problem - but not one solved by going in the opposite direction again. Quite the contrary.

But again I would say that we can't change our system because of individual incidents.

I wasn't advocating that at all, to be clear. But I guess the choice of an example of a high profile case clouded the actual issue I wanted to raise.

Person NN has just spent 5 years in jail for some crime(s) he committed. He now goes job hunting, and sends in his resume. What does he mention he's been doing the last five years? Every employer will notice a lack of recent work experience. Most will just dismiss the application outright, and those that invite you for a interview will ask you about it.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

If it worked, the US would have one of the lowest crime rates in the developed nations.

It does not, though.

Sadly, you are right. The fact is that most inmates leave prison worse than when they went in, which shows that the system is a failure. Eventually it may dawn on us that simply locking people up in the hope that they will 'come to their senses' doesn't work, and then perhaps we will realize that they actually have mental problems which could be treated.

The urge is involuntary, the choice to act it out on a helpless child is just that, a choice.

Saying that it is a 'choice' implies that they make a rational decision to act on their urges, but how do you know it's not a compulsion that they have little control over? Evidence suggests that pedophiles, just like the rest of us, have difficultly suppressing their sexual urges. Until we acknowledge the limited role that 'choice' plays in criminal behavior, we will not make much progress in eliminating crime.

 

[The Norseman]

Sadly, you are right. The fact is that most inmates leave prison worse than when they went in, which shows that the system is a failure. Eventually it may dawn on us that simply locking people up in the hope that they will 'come to their senses' doesn't work, and then perhaps we will realize that they actually have mental problems which could be treated.

Exactly and has been pointed out in this thread, the problems are more of a cultural issue and less of a 'bad guys and prison' issue.

 

[Ryokan]

I wasn't advocating that at all, to be clear. But I guess the choice of an example of a high profile case clouded the actual issue I wanted to raise.

Person NN has just spent 5 years in jail for some crime(s) he committed. He now goes job hunting, and sends in his resume. What does he mention he's been doing the last five years? Every employer will notice a lack of recent work experience. Most will just dismiss the application outright, and those that invite you for a interview will ask you about it.

To be upfront, I have no idea how it's done. You could always be honest, I guess - my country isn't as hostile towards ex-convicts as some others. Or, if you got any education in prison, which is free and available to anyone in Norway, even prison inmates, you could put that in your resume. Googling 'job opportunities after prison' in Norwegian gives almost only hits on education.

I found this page on the website of the governmental Bureau of Statistics, which talks about how ex-convicts fare when it comes to jobs. But it's a bit much to sit down and interpret this late at night. And it only talks about the opportunities for job, and doesn't really answer your question of how it's done, what they write on their resumes and what they say in a job interview.

This all might also be way off topic, and would perhaps be worthy of its own thread.

 

[SezMe]

I was thinking something along the lines of every inmate being put on 24 hour lockdown/suicide watch for the duration of their sentence. I'm sure that would make sure they stay on the straight and narrow no matter what afterward, and would work a lot better than spoiling them rotten.

Can I presume that you'll be as happy as a clam to pay the enormously higher taxes that would be required to sustain such an operation?

 

[Kahalachan]

I agree. But we can try to choose an appropriate punishment. Curing the underlying psychiatric condition means no urges anymore to rape babies.


Is prison an appropriate environment for that? Specialized psychiatric institutions would be more suited.

And that pedophile can walk out of the treatment at any moment he wants. Someone on forced psychiatric treatment cannot until the judge decides so (on advice of the treating psychiatrist). I was thinking of how the Dutch TBS system works (or not).

Good point. So then after a sentence, mandatory treatment for probation. It's punitive and rehabilitative. Or even getting treated and then they realize what they did was wrong and would happily serve jail time.

A locked psychiatric facility works as well. Just as long as they aren't in some fancy pants luxury treatment center, that's punitive enough in my book.

 

[The Don]

Alright. I don't know anything about the histories you are talking about so I'll take your word that it is the case.

Glasshouse is a generic slang term for a military prison and has been used by NWO Sentryman in the past as a shorthand for a specific military prison in Colchester.

Some things to note about the "glasshouse" regime and its results

• Because they are serving military personnel, the population of the "glasshouses" is not typical of the general prison population in terms of education, motivation or attitude to authority
• Generally speaking"glasshouses" deal with minor offenders and in particular those who have broken military regulations rather than civil law. Major offenders are still housed in the general prison population
• "Glasshouse" staff have a different set objectives than prison staff - specifically to try to get those suitable back into the army
• "Glasshouse" inmates have a job available to them if they are retained in the armed services. One of the biggest issues for most ex-convicts is a lack of work (though 70% didn't have a job at the time of conviction).

td;dr verion

"Glasshouses" != the normal prison system

 

[The Don]

Can I presume that you'll be as happy as a clam to pay the enormously higher taxes that would be required to sustain such an operation?

I think NWO Sentryman's position is that a system like that would result in a tiny number of prisoners and would reduce the costs to society overall. IMO that position is utterly wrong.

 

[The Don]

On the off chance I am being misinterpreted (not that I generally concern myself with that), I trust we have all noted that nowhere have I applied my attitudes to petty or bigger thieves, shoplifters, grifters, pickpockets, drug dealers who do not murder anyone/ harm anyone(beyond selling them the drugs), producers of pornography (except the obvious or real violence items) prostitutes... I do apply it for rapists, active pedophiles, most murderers, torturers, assault with more than very minor physical damage, kidnappers, terrorists and those who assist any of these. Hopefully this helps. At basic, I am fine with the Norway, etc. system ON NON-VIOLENT CRIMINALS. And I am happily supportive of my preferences on violent criminals. I want them out of my world and I want them to leave it knowing without question that they had done wrong and been helped to repent.

So someone convicted for affray as a drunken 18 year old should be excluded from society forever ? IMO you haven't thought through the consequences of such a system or have recognised that the 18 year old may bear very little resemblance to the 30 or 40 year old. I think you approach is far too draconian.

 

[The Norseman]

Glasshouse is a generic slang term for a military prison and has been used by NWO Sentryman in the past as a shorthand for a specific military prison in Colchester.

Some things to note about the "glasshouse" regime and its results

• Because they are serving military personnel, the population of the "glasshouses" is not typical of the general prison population in terms of education, motivation or attitude to authority
• Generally speaking"glasshouses" deal with minor offenders and in particular those who have broken military regulations rather than civil law. Major offenders are still housed in the general prison population
• "Glasshouse" staff have a different set objectives than prison staff - specifically to try to get those suitable back into the army
• "Glasshouse" inmates have a job available to them if they are retained in the armed services. One of the biggest issues for most ex-convicts is a lack of work (though 70% didn't have a job at the time of conviction).

td;dr verion

"Glasshouses" != the normal prison system

Thank you! I appreciate the information. I was mistaken in my first presumption and learned many things because of it. It's often pretty cool to be wrong on JREF.

 

[Checkmite]

Saying that it is a 'choice' implies that they make a rational decision to act on their urges, but how do you know it's not a compulsion that they have little control over?

Have you heard of "grooming"? Pedophiles are capable of selecting victims from a pool of choices and spending large amounts of time befriending a target child and his/her family, manipulating his/her way into a position of trust or authority over the child, waiting for as long as it takes until the chance of discovery is lowest and then systematically escalating sexual activity.

The very fact that a child molester is capable of being as selective and patient as necessary in order to accommodate their activity seems to render the notion that the eventual, ultimate act of molestation was some irresistible compulsion that they couldn't repress if they wanted to rather less-than-credible, IMO.

 

[SezMe]

I think NWO Sentryman's position is that a system like that would result in a tiny number of prisoners and would reduce the costs to society overall. IMO that position is utterly wrong.

Possibly. IMO, your IMO is spot on.

 

[luchog]

Do it like we do in Norway: Once you've served your sentence, you're done your punishment. You should be allowed to integrate yourself into society and become a productive member again. You don't need to inform your employers of your status as an ex-convict, nor should there be any public record of who has spent time in jail. It should only be relevant if your previous conviction makes you unsuitable for the job.

There is legislation pending in my state to institute just this sort of policy. There are already some restrictions on what an employer can ask regarding past criminal convictions; but they're weak and easily circumvented. There's increasing pressure in my state and others to more stringently restrict employers' access to criminal history that does not directly affect an applicant's suitability for a specific job. The primary impetus for this is the sheer number of people in the US with criminal convictions; and the fact that minorities are disproportionately affected, leading to a downward spiral of unemployment, poverty, and criminality; with all the concomitant social troubles.

 

[luchog]

Good point. So then after a sentence, mandatory treatment for probation. It's punitive and rehabilitative. Or even getting treated and then they realize what they did was wrong and would happily serve jail time.

A locked psychiatric facility works as well. Just as long as they aren't in some fancy pants luxury treatment center, that's punitive enough in my book.

Most US states have programs for sex offenders that involve a combination of jail time, probation, and mandatory treatment. These programs have greatly reduced recidivism for sex offenders, and combined with increasing restrictions on an employer's ability to discover an offender's conviction history has resulted in improvements in employability, which also helps with the reduction in recidivism. This, combined with registration and monitoring, has proven very effective at managing the problem; and the move is increasingly away from jail time for non-violent sex-offenders, and more towards probation, treatment, and monitoring.

In states that still maintain harsher, prison-focused penalties; recidivism rates are higher. They have also seen dramatic increases in the homeless population; with large numbers of sex offenders dropping off the radar, unmonitored and unaccounted for. Some of whom move on to different states. Research on homeless populations shows that they tend to gather into informal communities with high rates of criminal activity; and form a substantial part of the underground criminal economy in these regions.