Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[TheRealnz]

Instead of responding with emoticons, how about a proper reply?

 

[geni]

you're the one who is completely sidestepping the bigger issue here which is the NATO brand of cold war politics which it continues to use against Russia despite well the end of the Cold War.

Hmm RIDL?

NATO is really really not on a cold war footing at this point.

Let's side step the deliberate encirclement of Russia with hostile governments

Not possible even in theory.

and the anti-missile defense system that the US wants in place in Eastern Europe, you know, the one that is a real threat to world peace and could actually destroy the balance of forces between these superpowers and make russia vulnerable.

1)Russia isn't a superpower any more. 2)Russia has enough missiles to overwhelm anything the US can afford to build in any case.

Lets forget about the fact that the West has targeted Russian allies for destabilization like Syria, Belarus, Venezuela and Ukraine and replace their governments with rabid anti-russian ones like the illegitimate neo-nazis now sitting in Kiev.

Syria wasn't targeted as that suggests a level of control over events that the west doesn't have. Lukashenko's dictatorship in Belarus looks pretty stable to me.

Venezuela isn't meaningfully a Russian ally. It simply has a leadership that wants to annoy the US. And the cause of its present instability are internal.

As for Ukraine arguably part of the problem is most of the west doesn't have a meaningful plan with regards to Ukraine.

So when russia makes a move to protect its interests, it is ultranationalist.

No it is launching an invasion in breach of guarantees is has previously signed.

but when the US assistant Secretary of State plans a coup and actually dictate what is going on in Kiev it is nothing but the free world being in solidarity with democratic forces

You think John Kerry managed to plan a coup?

 

[ZouPrime]

Instead of responding with emoticons, how about a proper reply?

Well, it's something to say that old USSR satellite countries joining either NATO or the EU has some destabilizing effect in the region because of Russian nationalism, which I can understand and agree, and saying that the Secretary of States is actually dictating the Maidan moves.

 

[trustbutverify]

Instead of responding with emoticons, how about a proper reply?

A laughing dog is the proper reply to assertions that the Ukrainian rebellion (not a coup) was a John Kerry operation.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Certainly Andriy Parubiy looks like a Nazi to me. That is very concerning.

His deputy Jarosch is the right sector skinhead guy I posted a video statement from a week or so ago, outlining his grand vision of "reconquista". Equally undeniable a Nazi. Those two led the armed gangs on Maidan, "protecting" the poor little hippie activists (who certainly have been there but unfortunately have no influence on what's going on) against the police.

Can you imagine how they got their new jobs? I'd say it's because their guys were physically present "protecting" the parliament while the "electing" stuff was going on.

That's extremely worrying and as was said a very good reason for army personal to not follow orders from people like that. Hence it seems that Crimea has an air force atm while Ukraine doesn't have a navy anymore.

If anybody wants to see beaten up parliamentarians or bus loads of counter-protesters brutalized or even traffic police forced to "identify themselves" towards armed thugs who want to check something in their documents to decide how to proceed, just ask and I'll go relocate the videos.

 

[A'isha]

Here's Churkin's press conference just uploaded by the UN, and while the "16 thousand troops deployed" claim doesn't come up directly, from context it's clear that he is talking, like he did before, about actions of the Black Sea Fleet stationed there. The headline of the article L.Y.S. posted and the content of the first paragraphs is utterly misleading. 16 thousand troops "deployed", Churkin confirmed and says Janukovic "requested them". Total nonsense. What do you say about that?

I say that, after watching the video of Churkin's press conference, it's exactly the way the AP described. Churkin specifically states that Putin forwarded to the Russian parliament the letter that Yanukovich sent him containing Yanukovich's request that Russia intervene militarily in Ukraine as part of Putin's own request that such an intervention be authorized.

In addition, it's clear that when Churkin talks about the Black Sea Fleet taking action, he's referring to the armed troops assigned to the Fleet forces, not the naval vessels. Because it sure as hell isn't ships that are doing the intervening in the "areas of concern" in the Crimea that Churkin says the Russian military is engaging in.

 

[dudalb]

you're the one who is completely sidestepping the bigger issue here which is the NATO brand of cold war politics which it continues to use against Russia despite well the end of the Cold War. Let's side step the deliberate encirclement of Russia with hostile governments and the anti-missile defense system that the US wants in place in Eastern Europe, you know, the one that is a real threat to world peace and could actually destroy the balance of forces between these superpowers and make russia vulnerable. Lets forget about the fact that the West has targeted Russian allies for destabilization like Syria, Belarus, Venezuela and Ukraine and replace their governments with rabid anti-russian ones like the illegitimate neo-nazis now sitting in Kiev. So when russia makes a move to protect its interests, it is ultranationalist. but when the US assistant Secretary of State plans a coup and actually dictate what is going on in Kiev it is nothing but the free world being in solidarity with democratic forces

 

[Childlike Empress]

I say that, after watching the video of Churkin's press conference, it's exactly the way the AP described. Churkin specifically states that Putin forwarded to the Russian parliament the letter that Yanukovich sent him containing Yanukovich's request that Russia intervene militarily in Ukraine as part of Putin's own request that such an intervention be authorized.

Nonsense. The AP headline claims that Churkin confirmed that 16 thousand troops were deployed - on Janukovic's request. He did nothing of the kind. Blatant manipulation to support the "invasion" hysteria. You can close your eyes but it won't go away.

In addition, it's clear that when Churkin talks about the Black Sea Fleet taking action, he's referring to the armed troops assigned to the Fleet forces, not the naval vessels. Because it sure as hell isn't ships that are doing the intervening in the "areas of concern" in the Crimea that Churkin says the Russian military is engaging in.

Strawman. Don't waste my time, A'isha.

 

[A'isha]

Nonsense. The AP headline claims that Churkin confirmed that 16 thousand troops were deployed - on Janukovic's request. He did nothing of the kind. Blatant manipulation to support the "invasion" hysteria. You can close your eyes but it won't go away.

Where does it say that? Because the headline in L.Y.S.' link says "Russia says Yanukovych requested troops in Crimea; Ukraine tells UN that 16,000 there now", both of which are entirely true.

Strawman. Don't waste my time, A'isha.

So much for "anti-imperialism".

 

[IDB87]

Nonsense. The AP headline claims that Churkin confirmed that 16 thousand troops were deployed - on Janukovic's request. He did nothing of the kind. Blatant manipulation to support the "invasion" hysteria. You can close your eyes but it won't go away.

Russia says Yanukovych requested troops in Crimea;
Ukraine tells UN that 16,000 there now

That doesn't sound like 16,000 were deployed on Yankies request.

Is it impossible that the numbers requested (say, coming off the Black Sea Fleet) supplemented by local forces from the leased naval bases as well as pro-Russian militias, bring the total number of Russian forces in Crimea to 16 thousand?

I guess one way to figure this out would be to know the number of marines available to Black Sea Fleet (at least a brigade's worth according to Wiki), how many were stationed at these naval bases, and how many forces may be brought to bare from the local supporters.

This is of course entertaining your silly idea that Russia wouldn't deploy troops to Crimea to prevent the up-coming Nazi-led civil war that would see thousands of their (essentially) countrymen slain and their naval bases captured.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Where does it say that? Because the headline in L.Y.S.' link says "Russia says Yanukovych requested troops in Crimea; Ukraine tells UN that 16,000 there now", both of which are entirely true.

Wow, the article has been retitled and partly rewritten. I hope L.Y.S. and anybody who read it earlier can confirm, but with this headline the earlier posts wouldn't make sense anyway. The original headline said something like "Ukraine tells UN that 16,000 troops were deployed; Russian Ambassador says Yanukovych requested them" and that was repeated in the first paragraphs. I guess I haven't been the only one complaining. Well, maybe this time it's only an incompetent editor and not conspiracy, but it is remarkable how everyone talks about "invasion" based on rumours and statements by the putschist government, often omitting the existence of the troops belonging to the Black Sea Fleet being there all along based on long-term contracts.

 

[Garrison]

So much for "anti-imperialism".

Tsk do you understand nothing? If the USA does it is imperialism; if Russia does it is protecting national interests.

Putin needs Crimea to spin the Ukraine situation as a demonstration of Russian strength and not the dismal failure it has been for Russia's foreign policy. If you buy into the line that the revolt in Kiev was all some some devious western plot then you surely have to come away concluding that Kerry/Obama are way better at this than Putin who appears to be less Blofeld from the Bond movies and more Doctor Evil from Austin Powers.

 

[Childlike Empress]

If you google the url now you can see that the article was changed less than two hours ago, three hours after it was published. Sorry for being harsh about it, A'isha, you correctly assessed a different article.

 

[A'isha]

If you google the url now you can see that the article was changed less than two hours ago, three hours after it was published. Sorry for being harsh about it, A'isha, you correctly assessed a different article.

Even the before-the-change version depicted in your screenshot doesn't remotely resemble the the "lie" you accused the AP of perpetrating. It correctly attributes the 16,000 troop claim to Ukraine's ambassador (true), and notes that the Russian ambassador says that their troop intervention was indeed requested by Yanukovich (also true).

As IDB87 points out, it's not like the 16,000 number is unbelievable in any way. And you're still ignoring the fact that the Russian armed troops may have legitimately been on the Crimean Black Sea Fleet bases per the contracted arrangement, but their current activities are pretty much the textbook definition of "a foreign military illegitimately occupying and taking control of a sovereign state's territory".

Something which, oddly, doesn't seem to trouble you in the least, despite your "anti-imperialist" credentials. Or maybe Garrison has the right of it after all?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Even the before-the-change version depicted in your screenshot doesn't remotely resemble the the "lie" you accused the AP of perpetrating. It correctly attributes the 16,000 troop claim to Ukraine's ambassador (true), and notes that the Russian ambassador says that their troop intervention was indeed requested by Yanukovich (also true).

You haven't read the headline - read my earlier posts and what L.Y.S. thought it meant when he posted it. 16 thousand troops "have been deployed", Churkin confirms and says that J. requested them. Invasion.

As IDB87 points out, it's not like the 16,000 number is unbelievable in any way. And you're still ignoring the fact that the Russian armed troops may have legitimately been on the Crimean Black Sea Fleet bases per the contracted arrangement, but their current activities are pretty much the textbook definition of "a foreign military illegitimately occupying and taking control of a sovereign state's territory".

Something which, oddly, doesn't seem to trouble you in the least, despite your "anti-imperialist" credentials. Or maybe Garrison has the right of it after all?

16 thousand troops is realistic, I think the contracts allow for 25 thousand or so. I'm ignoring nothing and said it is debatable if what they are doing now is legitimate, request from the regional government or not. Of course you don't know what they are doing, and neither do I. I know that the threat of violence is real and that the regular police force has disappeared in Kyiv and elsewhere and that the people of Charkow halfway to the Crimea had quite the struggle to get the Nazi thugs out of their regional government building. Seen the video?

This all so far has nothing to do with invasion and fact is that Putin hasn't used the authority he asked for and was granted. Yet. Imagine that, btw, asking for authority before doing anything. I would love to listen to one of those Putin-Obama phone calls. Must be hilarious.

 

[trustbutverify]

Frankly, I've been surprised by the speed and ferocity of condemnations in the international community and the non-conspiratorial press against Russian actions in Crimea. Despite the massive support he's getting at home, I get the impression Putin has been put on the defensive by all the heat, and will have to proceed very cautiously. His options might be thinning out.

 

[Puppycow]

First off, our capitalism is "fettered". Europe is so heavily reliant on Russian gas exports in no small part because of European regulations that have limited domestic energy production. If Europe is smart, that will change.

I think Europe should stop worrying and learn to love fracking. Either that or learn to live without natural gas. One of those two things. Ukraine might be able to produce some of its own too. Of course, Russia could still hurt them in the short term, but at the price of hurting their own export market in the long term, because other sources will be found.

 

[geni]

I think Europe should stop worrying and learn to love fracking.

Its trying but the geology isn't all ideal.

Either that or learn to live without natural gas.

Going back to coal gas isn't really practical and natural gas power plants seem to have a faster build time than pretty much anything else.

 

[crescent]

They don't need to go to coal or natural gas - Germany can revert to nuclear. they have a lot of plants they have been taking off-line. Those plants were not dangerous, it was just anti-nuclear hysteria that took hold after Fukishima.

I suspect many people would rather see real deaths from Russian gas politics than non-existent/hypothetical deaths from nuclear power plants, but that is a hijack for another day.

 

[Puppycow]

Putin's been humiliated in Ukraine. His image is what concerns him, not the markets.

Yeah, that's what worries me. Not losing face may be more important than not losing money.

If people were completely rational and reasonable, then most wars wouldn't happen.